| ▲ | nemomarx 2 hours ago |
| I feel like I'd want the opposite of this - something that mimics the cleaning process of sleep that you could use in the afternoon for a nap or etc. |
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| ▲ | smallnix an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's in the article no? > Orexin antagonists (which block the molecules’ actions rather than mimicking it, and thus promote sleep), have been available since 2014 as treatments for insomnia. They work differently from conventional sleeping pills, which enhance GABA, one of the brain’s main inhibitory neurotransmitters.
Birgitte Kornum, an expert on orexins at the University of Copenhagen, says such pills induce sedation rather than natural sleep and often lose effectiveness with continued use. Orexin antagonists instead turn down the brain’s wakefulness signal, letting its sleep-promoting systems take over. Evidence suggests this produces better sleep, with less risk of dependence and fewer long-term problems. |
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| ▲ | nemomarx 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's just a sleep med, right? I mean something to let you get the repair and cleaning faster, not just induce sleep. |
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| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sleep isn't about cleaning. It might include cleaning, but I don't believe for a second that cleaning is the main function. Why? Cleaning is easy to optimize yet sleep is evidently hard to optimize. Going unconscious for a big chunk of the day in a world where everything wants to eat you is a crazy price to pay, yet sleep is highly conserved across species under this extreme selective pressure. Even the animals famous for avoiding sleep don't really avoid sleep so much as bend the rules! Seals partially wake up to breathe, migrating birds sleep a hemisphere of their brain at a time, but they all sleep. This didn't happen because "pumps are slow" or "filtering is hard." Biology is excellent at copy-paste-reinventing that stuff. Optimizing the pumps and filters is not something evolution would have struggled to do if it could have meant not going unconscious for a third of the day. Especially for organisms with small brains where the transport logistics are trivial. IMO the much more likely explanation is that the brain uses contrastive learning somewhere. We know animal brains don't use backpropagation to train and contrastive learning is one of the biggest competing family of techniques. Instead of using calculus and outer products to calculate derivatives, you feed real data and false data forward through the network and each neuron tracks and trains on the difference. This can be batched -- many CL techniques could handle 16 hours of real data followed by 8 hours of false data -- but the false data can't be put off forever, or the contrast signal goes away. Also, you probably want to inactivate I/O while the false data is flowing through. In other words: sleep emerges from first-principles on the category of neural network learning techniques that the brain probably uses. I don't think anyone was seriously about to shoot up with sleep-replacement peptides, but also: don't. Let someone else figure this out the hard way. |
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| ▲ | nvme0n1p1 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If that were true, wouldn't you expect 50 year olds (who have mostly learned how to navigate life) to need little or no sleep? Seniors sleep only a little less than young adults, still 6-8 hours a night. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | There are other known mechanisms in sleep, for example copying/condensing short-term to long-term memory by replaying it. Translating increased compression into better fundamental performance seems like a steep task and 50 year olds have already reproduced or not, so shrug | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | redox99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you overestimate the disadvantages of sleep. It's very species dependent, for some it might be a disadvantage because you're more vulnerable to predators, for others it's an advantage because you spend less energy. If you're safe you really only need enough wake time to eat and reproduce. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent [-] | | If you're safe. | | |
| ▲ | redox99 an hour ago | parent [-] | | You definitely see a bit of this in other primates. They sleep on trees (much safer) and for a lot more hours than humans. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent [-] | | That's great for primates, but what about nematodes? Everything with a nervous system sleeps, even when the cost is high. | | |
| ▲ | redox99 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Obviously sleep is necessary. I'm saying that there isn't always a large pressure to minimize sleep. Long sleep can be beneficial just to preserve energy. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the much more likely explanation is that the brain uses contrastive learning somewhere This doesn’t explain sleep in virtually brainless creatures. A metabolic root cause seems more likely. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent [-] | | Why would neurons be exempt from training just because they weren't clustered into a brain? By comparison, transport-related phenomena are almost completely trivialized in the simple creatures. The existence of sleep in simple critters seems strong evidence in favor of contrastive learning over cleaning explanations. Could you make the case for metabolic explanations? Are there a bunch of coupled mechanisms that all require downtime and couldn't possibly be phased? |
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| ▲ | hyperpallium2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | dreams are false data | | | |
| ▲ | toasty228 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think we made a big mistake by using biological terms for computer processes and now we have people like you coming to the """natural""" conclusion of going full circle and applying computer terms back to biological processes. There is virtually no parrelel between both worlds besides the naming and no one has any idea about what's going on for real. | | |
| ▲ | biorach 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't see a need to be dismissive. There is a lot of evidence that there is a relationship betwwen sleep and learning. The hypothesis advanced by the OP is worth evaluating on its merits rather than being dismissed as a fale equivalence. | |
| ▲ | black_knight 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I keep hearing that. At the same time people makes comments like the one you just answered to, using that analogy heavily. Could someone who understands both say where the analogy breaks down in this case? |
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| ▲ | volkercraig 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you want something that displaces adenosine from your neurons you are in luck, because it already exists and is very easy to get; It's called methamphetamine |
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| ▲ | voidfunc 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Excellent, but now I have a new problem: An addiction to meth. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is that worse than an addiction to sleep? | | |
| ▲ | redox99 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Do not, my friends, become addicted to sleep. It will take hold of you, and you will resent its absence! | | |
| ▲ | fragmede an hour ago | parent [-] | | Beware! If you start on a sleep addiction, one day you'll take a nap and never wake up! | | |
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| ▲ | bluemoonx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This would be incredible. The closest thing now is amphetamine but it turns people into maniacs - presumably the action here is not actually the brain cleaning function of sleep, rather just preventing reuptake of neurotransmitting chemicals that would cause it, if allowed. Would be nice to truly provide the mechanism in a synthetic form - I wonder what it would feel like to have the brain “slept” while awake. |
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| ▲ | strictnein 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| By mimic do you mean it does the cleaning process or just that you feel like it did? If it was the former, that would be very interesting. |
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| ▲ | hamdingers 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The latter is how caffeine works. Blocks adenosine receptors so you don't feel tired even though you are. | | |
| ▲ | Gooblebrai 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you don't feel tired, are you really? I'm curious what are the objective metrics to determine someone is tired | | |
| ▲ | npunt 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Tiredness is a signal that the body/brain needs rest so the glymphatic system can go to work. You can lose the signal but still need rest. If your brain doesn't flush metabolic waste periodically you develop brain fog, bad memory, and increased risk of Alzheimer's, and you'll eventually die, as sleep deprivation studies have found. | |
| ▲ | odo1242 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Caffeine doesn't actually do any of the things sleep does to your brain. If you drink coffee during a late night, you won't feel as tired, but your brain performs worse, your reflexes are slower, you're less likely to remember things, etc. It's like painting over a rusted car instead of properly maintaining it, basically. | | |
| ▲ | binary132 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think GP was just making a point about the fact that “tired” is a subjective experience, like pain. Arguably, if you’re on pain medication, you’re not in pain, even if your body is sending pain signals that your brain just isn’t receiving or paying attention to. | | |
| ▲ | Gooblebrai an hour ago | parent [-] | | Indeed. Pain is also interesting because chronic pain, AFAIK is sometimes a misfiring of pain signals even when nothing is physically wrong. Turning off that misfiring with drugs would be dangerous (pain is an alert) but also improve the quality of life of so many people! |
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| ▲ | jkahrs595 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If I’m on morphine is my leg even still broken? | |
| ▲ | usui 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn't the answer yes if people still die from overwork despite being caffeined up? | |
| ▲ | burningChrome 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You have the ability to mentally push through a lot of stuff, but there are a host of signals your body will use to warn you such as: cognitive performance (although this is hard for yourself to actually admit its happening), behavioral indicators like yawning, head bobbing, frequent posture changes, and slowed speech are just a few indicators. Irritability is another big red flag. I've only had two instances where I ignored all the signs and continue to push on until my body literally shut down on me. Finals week in college as an architecture student trying to finish a final studio project, and study for four finals. 5 days, 3 hours of sleep. That was one of them. | |
| ▲ | wmf 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Michael Jackson is the ultimate case study for this. |
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| ▲ | baueric 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | so the former then | | |
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| ▲ | anigbrowl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| What if we just normalized taking naps more often? |
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| ▲ | semiquaver an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Not everyone can nap. Besides, the need to nap is an indicator of poor sleep. Why not just normalize sleeping properly (nb: rhetorical question)? | |
| ▲ | tayo42 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I feel like people insist that if you get 8 hours of good sleep you shouldn't need a nap |
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