Yeah, that's pretty much what I am imagining. You're right about needing some teeth - maybe the legislature could define a spec, and penalties for implementing the feature in a commercial product without actually following the spec.

I really think all we need is what you describe in your third paragraph. It doesn't need to be bulletproof, it just needs to be an easy way for parents to set the level of content their children can access without them having to hover over their children at all times. Something like that could easily be set up in the Genius store when someone gets a new iPhone, or set up at first boot on an Android phone. That's like 90% of the devices anyone is actually worried about. Windows support of the feature would take it to like 99.9%.

> if browser(s) chose to on their own simply send "I'm over 21" to every site this becomes a pointless exercise and that applies whether the browser makers do it out of frustration that the OS support hasn't landed, or out of malice (imagine a browser that misreported age on purpose, specifically targeted at kids who want to bypass the parental controls).

If it's a header, you can strip it out at the browser level, the user level, the kernel level, the hardware level, the router level, the router OS level, the router hardware level, or at the ISP level, depending on what a parent (or a state) desired.

The teeth are only necessary for the websites, which are never going to conform to the law anyway, whether through a header or through device attestation, without draconian Chinese-level enforcement that has never been seen in the West before. This new contract will have to be enforced at both endpoints. You will need the ID (whatever you want to call it) to get onto the network, whether you're an individual or the site being visited.

The idea that device attestation is going to bother the Moldovan tube site your kid gets pirated porn through is a surprisingly ignorant fantasy, especially when it comes from technical people. The Pirate Bay is still up. Megaupload is up and runs better than ever. People have 20 year old torrent site accounts. OS-level age attestation must be a first step, because it won't work.

And as to it not being enforced either by the hardware or by identity verification of the user, that's an impossibility. A kid can also overwrite an operating system, or even just overwrite the important part; so that means that either only attested operating systems can be installed, or no user is trusted at any time without state verification.

But it's possible to lose a battle you were never going to win in the first place, and end up in a worse place.

I think that if these types of laws (illinois, california) don't hit a critical mass, we're going to see ID verification become the dominant method of age verification. Most websites will use it, and it'll become global because it's easier to just demand an ID and a photo for every user through some third party provider than to offer looser restrictions for the handful of states that have different demands.

This is especially true since it's now been demonstrated that states (like Texas) can go after out-of-state sites serving people in Texas. Sure, you could scrupulously try to identify which state someone is in and use the appropriate level of verification, but then you might be liable if it turns out it was someone from Texas or Georgia or Britain using a VPN.

Hard agree. I don't think we allowed video store operators in 1995 to just let kids wander into the back room and rent porn, but we're so used to there just being "no rules" online, it is coming as a massive shock now when it's being suggested that maybe there should be some basic guardrails to discourage that.

Let me be clear, I don't want face scans, or more of those creepy companies that operate this age verification crap for Discord, etc. Because I know it's not going to be implemented in the privacy-preserving way it could be, if there's ANY involvement with identity documents. Not least because we don't even have any proper cryptographically useful identity cards, so everything like that operates on a "trust us bro" basis where they pinky promise not to accidentally store everyone's raw face scans / ID cards / numbers / etc and inevitably leak them.

But out-of-box age declaration is not extreme and is not slippery-slope, any more than out-of-box user account creation 25 years ago has led to out-of-box ID card checks.

Or alternatively - you could recognize that normal people are getting more and more pissed off by the fact that social media companies are force-feeding garbage into their kids eyeballs 16 hours a day.

We could give them a reasonable solution that demonstrably preserves privacy and doesn't inconvenience anyone else (Suppose you want to see all the uncensored everything, you open your new PC or phone and say your DOB is 1/1/1900. Done. Status quo.)

Or we could be alarmist about that, torpedo that plan, and then in 2 more years when people are even MORE pissed, a horrifying new plan comes out, where the government scans your photo ID (with the help of some crappy private contractor of course) and both of them promise to probably not store the info and log your access. And that one manages to scrape by because people are at that point even more pissed and are determined to solve the problem somehow.

The actual 'bad guys' just wouldn't be able to get the public support for that second, shitty plan, if we basically solve the problem now with this very modest plan that's on the table now. Parents can handle this simple one-time out-of-box prompt and it makes sense. Device owner, the parent, that's the one who should make the call.

Slippery Slope is the assertion that A therefore B therefore C therefore D.

It is frequently a fallacy because D isn't predetermined by A when humans are involved. If you believe in free will, each of B, C, D are independent decisions. Sometimes we stop at A. Sometimes we pass Prohibition as a Constitutional Amendment, and later roll it back.

What? The GP comment is one single line which states that it just "will" happen.

What is the connection to “anti-trans bills”?

Who's the lobby?

But we already accept their right to ask. Certain websites have had age restrictions on them for years. There's nothing new to the idea that certain media is not permitted to certain age ranges. (This is leaving aside the idea that people generally agree that age restrictions and age verification are perfectly fine in public spaces in the physical world, and that the internet is very much an anomaly in this regard.)

Moreover, nothing really seems to have changed in the enforcement of that (as far as I understand, specifically focusing on laws like Illinois') — it's still ultimately the responsibility of parents to ensure their own child doesn't access restricted websites. This legislation would essentially provide a mechanism that makes it easier for parents to do that.

So no, I don't think that that is the right take.

I also find your edit somewhat amusing, as the key reason that age verification is such a topic is because of a different missing real-life social feature, which is the ability to look at someone and identify whether they're an adult or a child, alongside the ability to look at someone's ID without recording all their personal details forever. As they used to say, on the internet, no-one knows if you're a dog, which is both a strength and a weakness. Identifying mechanisms like this (ensuring parents have more control over their own computers, but not requiring full verification anywhere) seems like a reasonable approach to fixing some of the weaknesses of internet anonymity, while still preserving the basic strength that identifying yourself is always opt-in.

Nope. It's a stupid take. Especially considering over half of the US states have jumped right to looking for that verified answer but no one on HN gives a shit when red states do things. They only ever bitch and moan when a blue state is doing something far less invasive and then they have to turn it into a conspiracy theory that the blue states are secretly trying to do what the red states are just blatantly doing in the open with zero push back.