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dylan604 2 days ago

> We have hundreds of pharmacies with us now and they mostly successful and happy. Our biggest friction is customers being burned by vendors like this and writing off AI altogether as "not ready".

This is such a great graph. Your company feels successful because your customer is happy yet the rest of the world would be just happy if your company died in a fire. This seems to also be just fine for companies like yours.

jonathan-adly 2 days ago | parent [-]

Very much clueless commentary. Retail pharmacies in the US are dying dozens a day. They don't have margin to support people answering the phone like tech companies with 80% margin do. Welcome to the real world where it is survival for these pharmacies not greed or shareholder value.

They literally lose money filling your branded prescription even with no labor baked in. We are their lifeline.

I know because I am not some spoiled tech worker who stumbled into this industry. I ran these pharmacies for over a decade before ever writing a line of code.

swatcoder 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

First, most tech companies of comparable size to your customers have negative margins and survive on investment cycles, and the tech companies that are bigger haven't offered human support to anyone in decades. (And indeed, everyone already resents this practice and those tech companies. Generally, sentiment is abyssmal.)

I know you're just trying to illustrate the real plight of your customers, but it's a bad illustration that confuses the discussion.

Second, out of sincere curiosity: what was the future of the industry -- and these particular pharmacies -- if AI hadn't arrived to offer salvation? The role they fill in society is non-optional, so how the market restructuring around these infeasibly narrow margins before?

dcrazy 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Microsoft offers human chat support for consumers, once you try their self-help tools: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/contactus?ContactUsExper...

Apple offers online, telephone, and of course in-person support for hardware and software: https://support.apple.com/?cid=mc-ols-general-homepage-marco...

Amazon offers online and telephone customer support on your “my orders” page.

Netflix offers phone and chat support: https://help.netflix.com/en/contactus

asdff 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Most of the support is severely binned now to edge cases. You can't just make a genius bar appointment anymore like you used to. You get triaged and most of the flow punts you to some unhelpful support or even worse, apple discussion forums. You basically have to lie to get a genius bar appointment through the system. Once you have the appointment the worker doesn't care and gets right to work same as always, but feels like the writing is on the wall where the next CEO will probably cut genius bar entirely and be rewarded with a surge in share price for the lower overhead.

Funny how you danced around google too. They are easily the worst in terms of offering support. People online in all seriousness suggest getting a google business account for 1 month and cancelling afterwards to actually get tech support.

Dotnaught 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Apple offers online, telephone, and of course in-person support for hardware and software

The last time I waited on hold for Apple developer support, I got to enjoy two whole hours of free hold music. So they offer human support, just not very enthusiastically.

mancerayder 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where's Google's hotline?

watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

NONE of those is comparable size.

dcrazy 2 days ago | parent [-]

I was replying to this:

> the tech companies that are bigger haven't offered human support to anyone in decades.

fatnoah a day ago | parent | prev [-]

...and Coinbase directs you to send a physical letter when their voice chatbot fails. Seriously. I had a login issue preventing me from accessing tax forms and the phone tree eventually got to the point where a sane provider would hand you over to human chat.

When the Coinbase voice agent gave me an address to mail a letter to and hung up, I was so shocked I had to call back and go through the process again. I was told to mail a letter describing my issue to an address on 5th Avenue in NYC.

SoftTalker 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> what was the future of the industry

If my experience is common, most health plans are moving to mail-order for routine, generic, recurring prescriptions. They only want you to visit a retail pharmacy for stuff that is urgently needed or strictly controlled.

jimberlage 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why were pharmacies viable before? Presumably they didn't lose money for their whole history.

43920 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Most pharmacies are having financial issues basically due to being stuck in the middle of the battle between insurers, drug manufacturers, and PBMs over reimbursement rates, and having the weakest negotiating position of all of the parties.

AI probably will save the pharmacies some money, but IMO this will probably cause reimbursement rates to decline further, leaving the pharmacies in the same position as before.

taurath 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Weakest negotiating position other than the customers.

The funny part is probably a majority of pharmacies are owned by CVS or Walgreens each of which are insurance companies in their own right, and often people with company health insurance will ONLY allow reimbursements through their company pharmacy.

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Tbh, this is most industries. Very few have much of a moat and have some wedge/pressure from their suppliers (land/labor/capital), their clients and competition.

Insurance companies and PBMs would probably say the same they have competitors (ie:replaceable) and can’t just pay more for this or that, or reject any cost saving measure available.

jonathan-adly 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2024.0...

Of the 88,930 retail pharmacies operating during 2010–20, 29.4 percent had closed by 2021.

nickphx 2 days ago | parent [-]

and that was not due to answering phones .. adding a nondeterministic black box of bullshit will change nothing.

milkshakes 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacy_benefit_management

quickthrowman a day ago | parent | prev [-]

PBMs gained control of drug pricing and squeezed out the small pharmacies that don’t offer additional services like compounding.

CVS And Walgreens both own and operate PBMs. And UHG (Optum), 19 Blue Cross plans collectively own Prime Therapeutics, Kaiser owns one, the DVA has one, Express Scripts is owned by Cigna. There’s likely more I am unfamiliar with too.

wolvoleo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wonder why? My pharmacy in Spain is owned by this older lady who's had this shop for life. Not too many customers but she manages and even has a few part time staff. It pays enough to make a living. And she always knows what I need and pings me on WhatsApp if something is ready for pickup. And there's 4 such neighborhood pharmacies within 200 metre walk. No kidding. All are viable.

I wonder, what changed in America? Why is the mom and pop pharmacy not viable anymore? This sounds like a much bigger problem than having to answer a couple of calls, really.

I don't really understand how everything turns into a mega corp with shareholders in the US. Sure we have some of those here too but why are small businesses not viable?

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent [-]

> I wonder, what changed in America? Why is the mom and pop pharmacy not viable anymore

Deregulation at every level = small/low leverage players get squeeeeezed.

Most likely in Spain (and much of the world), you have controlled pricing of drugs and fixed markups/fees at pharmacies. Quite possibly it’s illegal there for a non-pharmacist to own a pharmacy and they can’t own a bunch as a silent/relatively inactive partner either.

wolvoleo a day ago | parent | next [-]

True all those yes. In fact the govt pays for the meds, I just pay an issuance fee of 2€ or so. You can get private health insurance but I didn't bother, the state one is fine.

And yes you need to be a licensed pharmacist obviously.

I think the pharmacists mainly make their money on value add stuff and non prescription drugs.

People here mainly pick their pharmacy by familiarity and service not price. They're all the same anyway. I've never been to the other ones close to my house :)

It's kinda weird there's so many but it works so why not. And it's nice that she knows my name and what I'm on in case of issues. I live only 5 doors down the street. I really like that about here.

mindslight a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Deregulation at every level = small/low leverage players get squeeeeezed.

I love how stating a simple truth gets you downvoted. Deregulation doesn't mean "less regulation". Maybe in the abstract, but in practice after it passes through the political machine it means increasing regulation that entrenches a handful of large "private" businesses, while removing regulations that would constrain those businesses commensurate with their market power.

It's a plain fact - the players in the health care industry are closer to de facto governments rather than productive businesses in a competitive market. But yet they're allowed to squeeze pharmacy owners, patients, and anyone they can due to lack of effective regulation. That is why our small pharmacies are going away.

Note that I personally favor more market based reforms (eg the sheer majority of visits/procedures/medication should have up-front prices, and those prices should be uniform no matter who might be paying). But we've currently got the worst of both worlds and I would basically support any angle of reform as long as it actually reforms rather than resulting in more regulatory capture.

wolvoleo 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I think regulation and deregulation doesn't mean good/bad for small business anyway.

For example the EU just extended mandatory packaging regulations (PPWR and EPR) for businesses of any size, today. Meaning small artists sending as little as one package to an EU country have to register in that country (there is no central EU registry) and pay yearly fees which add up to thousands for all EU countries. In advance, no less. This even applies if you just chuck one single pendant in a tiny bubblewrap envelope, it's ridiculous. And it applies even within the EU where there is supposed to be a free open market. They have to pay the same fees as a Temu or Amazon, for whom a few thousand euros is peanuts.

So a lot of independent artists are cutting shipping to the EU or only allowing some where registration is free. This is one example where regulation is literally targeting small businesses to kill them.

mindslight 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, you are describing the dynamic I am talking about. My point about "deregulation" was in the US context where there is a strain of people who reflexively infer that deregulation must be good, from a general idea that regulations are bad. Regulations most certainly can be bad (as is the one you're describing), but this does not imply that blindly "removing regulations" is good! Because what tends to happen is that the type of regulation you are describing (registration/compliance/etc creating a fixed costs that are hard on small businesses but easy for large businesses) never gets removed. Rather what does get removed is regulations that are inconvenient to the large businesses - things like right of withdrawal [0], liability, anticompetitive restrictions on large businesses who have now become unavoidable parts of an uncompetitive market [1], etc.

[0] IIUC "right of withdrawal", at least. It's an EU thing where you have a legal right to return products after a purchase, right? Whereas in the US it operates more on custom, customer satisfaction, and marketing.

[1] eg if artists have to start selling through Amazon (etc) rather than shipping direct

dylan604 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Clueless? You sound tone deaf. If you came here thinking everyone would love your product becase AI, well, sorry about that.

Just because you think it is an amazing product does not mean the rest of us will agree with you. It's right up there with "I've never had a problem with it so anyone claiming to have a problem is wrong" mentality. It was your comment acknowledging the public does not like your product or products like yours. You just think your product is better than others. That may be true but it again does not mean it is so good that the public enjoys interacting with your product.

therein 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We are their lifeline.

Yeaaaah, I don't think that's true at all but I am glad it makes you feel virtuous and helpful.

gamblor956 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Retail pharmacies in the US are dying dozens a day.

I have a lot of pharmacist relatives. This is news to them.

Scoundreller 2 days ago | parent [-]

Store count seems to have peaked in 2018. Yes that data goes to 2021 but I doubt it got better after that.

https://schaeffer.usc.edu/research/pharmacy-closures-united-...

The bigger thing is consolidation and independents being replaced by bigger fish because their leverage is very very low.

gamblor956 16 hours ago | parent [-]

If you read the data you would have observed that a large chunk of those store closures were by the big retail pharmacy chains, which blows your central thesis out of the water.

Scoundreller 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe in absolute numbers but the situation for the ma and pa operations is worse:

“Independent pharmacies, often excluded from networks by pharmacy benefit managers, were more than twice as likely to face closure compared to chain pharmacies.”

toomuchtodo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

PBMs, private equity, and health insurance companies are what are crushing pharmacy margins. AI voice assistants will not last as a solution imho.

https://nashp.org/state-tracker/state-pharmacy-benefit-manag...

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/boom-the-break-up-of-big-...

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/inside-the-mafia-of-pharm...

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/the-real-reason-walgreens...

> But the real reason Walgreens, and the pharmacy business in general, is dying, is because of a failure to enforce antitrust laws against unfair business methods and illegal mergers. Elson touched on it when he mentioned lower reimbursement rates, but I don’t think people appreciate the full scope of what happened to Walgreens, and to the full pharmacy business in general. This is not a case of bad management, it’s a case of desperate management.