| |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Regular graded assignments is the "treated like children" version. The adult treatment is that you can come to class if you want, you can do the assignments if you want, but if not, that's fine too. There is one test at the end, and it's your responsibility to prepare for it as you want. You manage your own time, we offer consultation, lectures, assignments, tutorials etc. but you can reject all of this and learn the material from some other textbook, and as long as you've mastered the material, you'll get a good grade at the exam. This is how German universities work, for the most part. | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is the vicious feedback nowadays of online student evaluations of professors. Professors that are rigorous get complaints and low rankings, kids don't sign up for their sections etc. Kids (parents) pay the administration and the administration wants to keep the customer happy. The only real answer are standardized exams (such as licensure exams) which are beyond parent pocketbook capture. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Or like Europe. You don't pay tuition, but if you slack off, and don't progress properly, you only have a limited number of exam retries and limited number of funded semesters. If you fail, you're out, choose another profession. You're not a customer, you're someone who is trying to prove themselves and get certified by experts on their knowledge. The "customer" of the university is whoever will glance at the degree paper and tries to ascertain the skill/knowledge level of the outgoing student. They have to give a good signal there. The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. (Also, there should be electives, but the rigorous backbone of a degree should be mandatory, so "students won't choose this course" doesn't come up.) | | |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The reason this doesn't work in the US, is because they want mediocre children of rich parents to be pushed through, because college is a networking and social class-based finishing school, not a place for acquiring knowledge. Out of curiosity, which US university did you attend? I went to a well-known and highly-regarded public university in California, and they absolutely did not coddle their students. Poor-performing students regularly washed out. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | None, but have interacted with American students at European universities and they were very lost without all the coddling and all kinds of support infrastructure and basically getting their life organized by administrators who personally attended to their matters and reminded them a million times about deadlines and so on. They were unprepared for actually having to manage their own studies, read up on rules, find out where to register for something, until when, etc. etc. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That happens when American students first join US universities too. It takes a few weeks for freshmen to get acquainted with the new reality of being completely responsible for handling their affairs and ensuring their success. It’s nothing to slam them about; that’s an artifact of coming from a system that provides more guide rails during primary education and childhood than European children might enjoy. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | American colleges give way more support throughout the studies though. In Europe you're literally alone and nobody cares if you miss deadlines or you're failing out. No general consultations, no extra departments and admin bloat. You have to have your shit together. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It really depends on the university. Mine wasn't particularly helpful in this regard. They sent me a form-letter warning by mail once, when my GPA sank too low one quarter (this was before email was ubiquitous). And they did have some counseling resources available, but the resource-to-student ratio was very, very low. I would not call it white-glove service by any means. Perhaps you also don't have a comprehensive picture as to what is available to students across every university in Europe. Europe, like America, is a big place and, like America, the situation probably varies by institution. As with most things, the answer is probably more nuanced than general observations would make it seem. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tenure protects professors against students' complaints (often for the better, sometimes for the worse). Also, the administration already knows that students complain about professors who are tough, and don't typically pay heed to those complaints. Parents don't really have recourse either: what are they going to do, send their kid to Podunk State instead? | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes indeed. College departments are well-known for cutting the ranks of the professors who have proven track records of boosting enrollment in favor of awarding tenure to the professors who can't get butts in seats. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t think you understand how universities work. Which US university did you attend? | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think you understand how hiring, promotion and departmental finances works at US universities for roughly the last two decades. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I am very well aware, having close relationships with multiple faculty professors in my family to this day. Practically none of it has anything to do with student ratings. Which university did you attend? I asked you once already; put up or shut up. | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why does which college I attended have more bearing than the ones I have and do work at? I don't particularly care for your stupid irrelevant demand and I am refusing to engage it. I, my parents, my in-laws and my siblings are all academics. I don't need to prove anything to you. My brother is faculty at an ivy and literally what I am describing is what is currently going on in his department because the administration has foisted MBA brainrot "performance metrics" that are easily gamed by students and faculty who don't particularly care to teach but need points in their portfolios. Students are entitled "I'm the customer, and I'm always right and I'm paying you a lot" twats who get the administration to bail them out if they don't get As for half-assed work. It's similar but not as bad at R1 state universities where I work and have worked. You are completely out of touch and which university you or I attended in the 90s (two generations ago) is completely irrelevant. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | cortesoft 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you only care about the learning, then you could just take the incomplete. You don’t somehow lose the knowledge you gained. The only cost of an incomplete is it doesn’t help towards a degree, but a degree is just a signaling mechanism. If you want to be able to use their degree to signal something to someone, you will have to jump through their hoops. | |
| ▲ | majormajor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Adults don't have to prove things? As AI eats up the need for half-assed "I googled a few things and wrote something up and then slacked off for five hours" white-collar-paperwork jobs, it's gonna be pretty hard for people not willing or able to demonstrate that they can do anything that couldn't just be fully done with an "agent" instead. | |
| ▲ | pbasista 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I'd not accept to be treated like children. What is your expectation from such a class? What are you hoping to get out of it? If you merely want a tutor that will help you out navigate a topic you are interested in, with no strings attached, then sure, yes. No need to take exams. But if the goal is to get a formally recognized degree in some topic, then you will need to accept that there will be oversight over how you understand that topic. Because the institutions granting those degrees need to sign them off. And if they care about their reputation, they would be interested in signing off only on those students, who actually understand the topic. So there will need to be exams. In the AI era, it is close to impossible to guarantee that a remote exam will accurately evaluate your understanding of a topic. So the exams would need to be carried out in person. There is nothing children-specific in using such approach. It is merely one of the few still somewhat objective ways to actually test people's understanding of some topic. | |
| ▲ | pjmorris 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you think 'At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not' is a reasonable expectation for an adult? If so, how would an adult be treated while still expecting them to demonstrate mastery? If not, what do you think a reasonable expectation for an adult should be? | |
| ▲ | trentor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can learn remotely in his class. That's the whole point he is trying to make. Hybrid does not mean fully remote. If you want fully remote take a full remote class. | |
| ▲ | williamcotton 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you after learning or an accredited degree? | |
| ▲ | pdhborges 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you willing to pay to learn remotely from a university with crappy reputation? | |
| ▲ | throw_m239339 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well that's part of the issue with for profit education, if the student pays significant money for tuition, is he a customer or a student? | | |
| ▲ | majormajor 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | "The student is the customer" is a stupid metaphor that only caught on because a lot of people would rather just bring in dollars than worry about "are we actually teaching anything?" | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not a metaphor. They are literally the customer. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | They're a customer in the same way that a martial arts student is a customer: getting your butt kicked is literally what you're paying for. | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure. And just like with a martial arts student, if you kick their butt too hard, you will lose the customer and might get sued. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sued for giving out hard work assignments? That doesn't sound plausible. Under what theory would a student have a case? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
