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Amazon Is Creating the Biggest Pollution Source in the Country(newrepublic.com)
167 points by geox 5 hours ago | 79 comments
zepearl 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Let's add as well "SpaceX’s Terafab will rely on natural gas power plants, not Tesla solar panels" to the mix :o(

https://techcrunch.com/2026/08/07/spacexs-terafab-will-rely-...

deepsun 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Don't understand why. AI training can be run during the sunny days. Could be a good PR opportunity for Musk, I'm surprised he doesn't take it.

Especially if he buys from his own company.

jiggawatts a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

The reasons are:

- Running billions of dollars worth of GPUs only 30-50% of the time insanely wasteful. Everyone else is running them at 99% duty cycle or close to it.

- Solar is big and generally has to be built far from where the data centres are. Transmission is already a bottleneck in many states. Adding tens of gigawatts requires non-trivial large scale infrastructure investment by… the utility companies, not SpaceX. Not to mention regulatory hurdles, etc.

- Battery production is already mostly maxed out, so obtaining tens of gigawatt hours of capacity on short notice is a decent percentage of global production.

Gas and other fossil fuel power plants can be deployed adjacent to the data centres for effectively zero transmission loss and no long powerlines that upset the NIMBY types.

They can work 24/7 and are largely available right now, but as others have pointed out the turbine blades are a limiting factor with these too.

cbmuser 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

»Don't understand why.«

Because you cannot turn a large datacenter with thousands of aggregates, power supplies and so on off and on like a toaster.

chaos_emergent 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s an industrial supply bottleneck and rollout timeline incompatibility rather than a Dr Doom Evil Genius Complex that prevents everyone from deploying solar. The race dynamics make the discount rate on GPU deployments very high.

Solar is preferable when you have a ton of unproductive land and longer timelines to set it up - it’s certainly going to be cheaper than gas when everyone goes sets up NG plants as option 1 for new energy capacity.

The other confound is that China is the primary supplier of battery and solar tech, I’m sure that supply chain risk becomes part of the calculus when setting up so much infrastructure.

For scale, the current DC is about 8k acres, and the solar to run 7.6GW is almost 40k acres.

smallerize 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Natural gas generators are also a supply bottleneck. https://www.naturalgasintel.com/news/turbine-shortage-threat...

cbmuser 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

»It’s an industrial supply bottleneck and rollout timeline incompatibility rather than a Dr Doom Evil Genius Complex that prevents everyone from deploying solar.«

No, it's just physics.

bensyverson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would assume that training pales in comparison to inference when it comes to energy use, taking into account the number of inference users

aaron_m04 an hour ago | parent [-]

I wouldn't assume that. I would wish to see numbers on that first.

legulere 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is that the grid can’t get built out fast enough. You’ll probably see most AI data centers switch to grid power in the coming years using mostly wind and solar because it’s simply cheaper as well

nielsbot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

and would be cheaper in the long run? or maybe they could even do solar + storage.

i guess even at this stage “gas is easier” is still winning…

dgellow 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You’re talking about one of the most hated person on hearth with one of the worst reputation. The literal Nazi salute guy. I don’t think he cares much about positive PR like that

snippylongpossu an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Elon has aligned with the hard-right. He'd rather own the libs and hurt the global south than do that.

fhdkweig 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49220350

256 comments, 8 hours ago

MarkWayneNewton 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At least these sites (its more than Amazon) are being built near the energy source they will consume. Straight out of the ground into a turbine and then into the electron spinners.

Also there's not a lot of anything where these sites are located (Near El Paso). The 4-5 Road Runners who live around there will probably appreciate the change.

West Texas is basically Mad Max 2.

mrpopo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No one cares about West Texas, it's about the 33 million tons of carbon dioxide going into the atmosphere and warming the world.

Reminder that the USA are the country that historically burned the most fossil fuels, the world's largest extractor of oil, the only country trying to do a 180 on coal power.

Half of the world has experienced unprecedented heatwaves that will become the norm in 2050.

Stop burning fossil fuels.

measurablefunc an hour ago | parent [-]

It's not possible, the system can't work w/o fossil fuels.

mrpopo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

At the very least stop burning 3x more fossil fuels than the world average. Or stop your president from buying out renewable energy projects in order to prop up coal and gas. Or stop blocking public transportation developments. Why does it look like no one is trying?

measurablefunc an hour ago | parent [-]

They're trying but mostly in service of increasing profits which requires burning more & not less. Telling people to use less resources is a non-starter.

calgoo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please, yea it can, it just takes a full investment and outlawing of the fossil fuel industry that bribe everyone to say that its impossible.

calgoo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Can't answer comment so will answer here: electric delivery trucks are a thing... And it works well.

measurablefunc an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The average grocery store food item travels more than 3k miles to reach its destination from the source. Let me know how you're going to make that work w/o diesel.

WillAdams 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The solution to that would be "locavore":

https://www.thespruceeats.com/what-is-a-locavore-5118259

worik 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

1. My food does not, why does yours

2. There are many alternatives to fossil diesel

3. The alternatives involved decentralised technology, so is actively opposed by entrenched interests who would burn the world for a dollar

measurablefunc 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

Because I live in a city w/ an unsustainable ecological footprint & so does basically the rest of the industrialized world.

Mistletoe 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stop the system, everyone is miserable in it anyway.

worik 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The system will not survive another decade burning fossil fuels.

measurablefunc 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

The consequences are already baked in, the only question is how badly it will play out & who will get the short end of the stick.

paulkrush 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Permitted maximum of 10 grams(2 nickels) of CO2 per hour for every person in the US. 33 million tons * 2000 ton/pound * 454 g/pound / 365 days in a year / 24 hours in a day / 342.6M people in us = 9.984 grams

raincole 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It sounds... pretty good? It's not going to put pressure to the existing grid. Nor it will use freshwater. Near to the data centers themselves so the waste from power transmission is minimalized.

pseudosavant 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

These lucky Texans get to enjoy all this AI data center natural gas powerplant pollution.

conception 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except for that largest polluter in the country part. Our children and their children’s children and so on will curse our generation for what we did to them.

cbmuser 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I agree, America should finally build more nuclear power plants.

China is currently building 37 reactors simultaneously [1].

> [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/513671/number-of-under-c...

beebmam an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Not if the benefits of automating basically all forms of labor reach them.

calgoo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

So they can have cancer and not work... I guess that's better then working and having cancer. Or the people just starve instead so we don't have to worry about the pollution.

frotaur an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Might be benefits, might be downsides.

Gigachad 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We have fully automated AI slop TikTok feeds and it only cost the earth.

wlesieutre 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes, the planet got destroyed, but for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for sharebolders

hilariously an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Reach them? You mean reach Elon Musk.

synack 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't these things get more efficient as they scale up? One big plant is probably better than 30 small ones.

Grombobulous 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A better question is why a company is allowed to effectively lie using fraudulent false advertising in its marketing and brand image about being environmentally conscious and become the largest polluter in the country?

Is Amazon too broke to buy the necessary land to build out wind/solar/battery? I thought a company that name sponsored “Climate Pledge Arena” could afford to pay a little bit extra to care about the climate.

A wind/solar/battery solution is not even really much more expensive than gas power and it’s far less dependent on fluctuating fuel prices.

onlyrealcuzzo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Is Amazon too broke to buy the necessary land to build out wind/solar/battery?

It's more capital intensive, and interest rates are 8%, because our elected officials are completely incompetent.

Grombobulous 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

8% interest rates don’t seem to be a problem for financing all the data centers and AI hardware.

Amazon can afford to power their data centers with clean energy.

It’s not called “Climate Pledge But Only If It’s Less Capital Intensive Arena”

malvim 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They’re absolutely not that incompetent. They’re on the pockets of people who profit directly from this.

Follow the money, and all that.

seizethecheese 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t think business really wants interest rates that high. Without conspiracy theories, a simpler explanation is that this is simply democracy in action. People don’t want the spending reigned in, and they don’t want their taxes raised.

user43928 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am curious how renewables + battery compare here, if at all feasible.

I thought there was a gas turbine shortage?

NooneAtAll3 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

efficient in money, nothing is said about other metrics

it's quite possible to have more product made, thus more pollution (or less materials consumed, thus less)

but concentration definitely will rise

khimaros 4 hours ago | parent [-]

sometime in the energy sector once told me "the solution to pollution is dilution"

wat10000 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Which is nonsense. There's plenty of pollution that's been diluted as much as it possibly can be and is still problematic. CO2 is an obvious example. Or consider leaded gasoline or mercury. You have to be careful not to eat too much fish or you'll have trouble with the mercury in it. That's been diluted by the entire ocean and that didn't solve it.

deepsun an hour ago | parent | next [-]

They meant "to not get caught, we just dilute".

lazide 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

uh, that’s nonsense.

co2 is problematic because of concentration - the sheer volume.

leaded gas and mercury are a problem because of bio-concentration.

dilution still helps!

forestrywat 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Of course it helps, but where are you going to dilute more co2 these days?

neuronexmachina 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If I understand correctly, for speed of deployment they're building a less-efficient simple-cycle plant (instead of the typical combined-cycle). Even though it's larger, the efficiency is worse than a typical natural gas plant.

SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Natural gas is basically a waste product that gets flared off in many oil-producing parts of Texas. If this private power plant can use that gas for something productive then I guess at least we're no worse off. But it's not clear that is what is happening.

wat10000 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A bigger unit is generally more efficient, but this is a single plant with a bunch of units, and I don't know that the individual units are any bigger than they would be elsewhere.

coralreef 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Carbon tax would shift the economics in favor of renewables.

javierluraschi an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Carbon tax is the only way, you need to pay for picking up the garbage from the road or the air, the cost to clean op pollution and trash needs to be accounted for.

chaos_emergent 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think it would - tokens are so profitable and the race dynamics make the deployment timelines for most renewables untenable.

Throughput for solar projects is very high and increasing, latency is unfortunately also very high.

worik 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

A carbon tax would have been a fantastic solution in the 1990s

It is too late now. There are no pare to optimal solutions left

ChrisArchitect an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49220350

fhdkweig an hour ago | parent [-]

At this point, there are enough commenters in both threads to justify a merger.

LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Alternatives exist but they aren't free...

https://www.aga.org/decarbonizing-through-carbon-capture/

https://www.energyindepth.org/study-finds-carbon-capture-and...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277265682...

TIL mentioning a viable technology that would reduce emissions here but delay a forced transition to renewables is an instant downvote.

ares623 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Finally, a structure worthy of its namesake.

vladmk 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Someone’s gotta stop this who idk - that’s the problem

chinathrow 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> 7.65 gigawatt gas power plant

This is another level of insanity, right there.

selectodude 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Second largest hydrocarbon power generator in the world. Unreal.

worik an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That’s in sharp contrast to Amazon’s commitment to reach net-zero emissions by 2040...

Liars

senderista 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Shareholder Value Pledge Arena"

burnt-resistor 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

These jet engine gas turbines create air pollution in the forms of formaldehyde and NOx and noise pollution.

casey2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This completely ignores carbon capture and offsets. Amazon remains committed to net zero.

_ink_ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Amazon is not capturing carbon in any meaningful scale and planting trees is great, until they capture fire.

brianaker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Trees are wonderful for a number of reasons, and the need for them for local climate, which includes shading and their contribution to local humidity, is important as well.

They are not, though, a significant sequestration for CO₂.

A helpful way to think about this is to consider coal. To produce coal the energy input comes from time, pressure, etc over tens to thousands of millions of years.

The significance of trees is for the local climate, or global if you are considering one of handful of rainforests.

forestrywat 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Amazon is not capturing this amount of carbon. And the offsets are all smoke and mirrors.

bethekidyouwant 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Co2 is pollution now?

mirzap 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

On an industrial scale, yes, of course.

cebert 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes

esseph 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, by burning fuels we release carbon from the thing being burned, it gets mixed with oxygen, and released into the atmosphere as co2.

As the suns energy warms the earth, the earth radiates heat back out and away from the surface and normally back out into space. co2 also acts like a blanket for that radiant heat, and traps it inside.

More co2 in the atmosphere traps more energy around the planet like an insulated wrap.

To reduce this, we have to extract the carbon out of the atmosphere and store it.

goatlover 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's the main greenhouse gas contributing to climate change. Where have you been?

BurningFrog 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, but it's only damaging globally. It's no more damaging to the local environment than to anywhere else on the planet.