| ▲ | gruez a day ago |
| >in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best. What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=10... |
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| ▲ | fn-mote 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? Using the age profile of a country with over a billion people to dismiss its geopolitical power has no credibility. More appropriate to point out their (our) lack of domestic chip production and outsourcing of critical technologies. |
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| ▲ | gruez 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Using the age profile of a country with over a billion people to dismiss its geopolitical power has no credibility. The first two charts are for GDP, which correlates pretty well with geopolitical power. Moreover if we're going by population, wouldn't that imply India, and then later Africa are going to be superpowers? | | |
| ▲ | dathinab 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | GDP is subtle broken in many ways A "in general" correlates with geopolitical power doesn't necessary mean you can point at a specific case look at their GDP and come to a good conclusion. Especially not if it's as much of a special case as China. > wouldn't that imply India, and then later Africa are going to be superpowers? which might actually happen. If the US falls further from grace and the situations stays like that for a few decades, or the US and another huge power (e.g. China) fall into some costly conflict then India or a union of African countries have a serious chance to become a world super power. --- => But more relevantly this discussion is going into red hering argument direction: - No one argued that you should go _only_ by population, the argument is, that if a country with a gigantic population shrinks hugely they still have enough people left to wage large scale wars. - Similar no one (should) argue that GDP is by itself meaningful for such an assessment, it's one imperfect not supper reliable statistical point. Especially given how things move wrt. dark factories (i.e. fully automated => no light one as no human there), AI and similar. Yes, if GDP is supper low or high that says a lot, but a lot is not everything and a average GDP for decade long trends in a word looking to face a major time of change means not much in any direction. - Similar we are speaking about decade long developments, current military strength ist also just another non fully reliable indicator. E.g. Germany post WW1 had close to actual 0/no military strength, and then there was WW2 just a few years later... | | |
| ▲ | gruez 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | So going by one statistic (GDP) is bad, but going by another (population) gets a pass because... China's "special"? I'm sorry, but that just sounds like a special pleading. I don't like this because it just turns arguments into a fact-free zone where objective facts don't matter and the only thing that does is handwavy vibes from either side. Is China going to be the dominant superpower? The supporters can handwave endlessly about robot armies and the superiority of an authoritarian political system. The detractors can handwave endlessly about the demographic crisis and the fragility of an authoritarian political system. | | |
| ▲ | dathinab 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I litterally wrote a comment saying going by a single statistic is not sufficient. and it's not China being hadwaving "special" but the measurement you are applying really not working well for a country which is only half capitalist and half planed economy. Which is a separate argument from dark factories which is about (non low end) production in China getting increasingly decoupled from human worker and in turn is way less affected from a population collapse then it would be in other countries. This has nothing to do with robot armies, an argument you just made up, even if China would lose half their population they still had more people and in turn can theoretically man a larger army _even if they have a by % much larger population collapse_, they don't need any Robot army. Similar no one said their system is superior. Or do you mean the US, as a two party system with an extremely powerful president is something some would call semi authoritarian. Either way China having done some pretty effective decisions in recent years in some areas doesn't in any way mean it's the better system. Like a Monarch can do grate decisions, but Monarchy is still is a very bad system. Either way I also can't follow you how you jump from a listing of rough facts to there supposedly being a fact free zone. What there isn't is a single simpel conclusion. I mean it's a discussion where a single bad decision of a larger power can easily cause a unpredictable chain reaction which completely changes what are and aren't likely outcomes. The world is inherently complex and not everything has a simple black/white conclusion, actually most things don't have one. You can only look at all available metrics and do a guess what the future will bring. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > wouldn't that imply India, and then later Africa are going to be superpowers? Conventionally, a continent isn't a superpower. A country is. | |
| ▲ | graemep 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Africa is not a country. |
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| ▲ | jurgenburgen 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You don’t need a numerical advantage to dominate if you have a technological / organizational advantage. The British empire was outnumbered 10 to 1 and still managed to control a large portion of the world for a while. US government is working overtime to make sure legacy technologies stay around while the rest of the world is investing into the future. |
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| ▲ | graemep 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The British empire was outnumbered 10 to 1 and still managed to control a large portion of the world for a while It also had the support of a lot of the population of the areas it controlled and at least toleration by the majority. Most of its colonial civil service and military were people fro the colonies. | |
| ▲ | gruez 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >US government is working overtime to make sure legacy technologies stay around while the rest of the world is investing into the future. "Rest of the world"? Europe isn't even a player in the AI race. China might be better placed, but they also lag the US in terms of model development and capital deployed. They've been catching up, but that's not the same as "[American will] be in a similar place to Canada at best". That would require a lot of things to go right for China and/or a lot of things to go wrong for the US. | | |
| ▲ | dh2022 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | AI is purely a virtual world play. It may (or may not) make it easier to write code, reply to emails or Slack messages or create PowerPoint presentations. In the real world what matters are energy, natural resources and making (manufacturing) things. AI will not make it easier to build a house, to harvest a corn field, to assemble a car. AI will not improve weather forecasting accuracy- this is already pretty much 99.999% solved. So AI will not improve standards of living. All this to conclude that China’s standards of living will improve while America’s will stagnate (or worse) But sure, go ahead and enjoy those AI videos-some of them are even funny. | |
| ▲ | fhdkweig 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >>US government is working overtime to make sure legacy technologies stay around while the rest of the world is investing into the future. >"Rest of the world"? Europe isn't even a player in the AI race. I think the legacy technology he is referring to is the more about the electrical generation method rather than the AI use of that electricity. | | |
| ▲ | jurgenburgen 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, all the technologies of the future demand a huge increase in energy generation that fossil fuels can’t satisfy. In the long run (decades) the US won’t be able to stay in the game with this kind of anti-scientific policies. |
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| ▲ | dathinab 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What's going to replace it? I'm not sure if I'm mis-reading your comment, but: The idea that you "need a single extremely powerful country to replace it or the US will stay in its position" just doesn't add up. I'm not fully sure if that is what you meant but I have seen that argument a few times. _There doesn't need to be a replacement._ For most of the worlds history there wasn't a single leading world supper power, just regional super powers, or supper powers in specific sectors. And if we speak about who could become a supper power _after the US stops being one and there isn't one for some decades_. Then there are a bunch of candidates. E.g. China has a population collapse issues, but due to it's cut throat ruthless government and total population number and lead in factory automation might be from all countries with similar problems by margin the most likely to overcome it without power collapse. E.g. the EU might have many issues (as it's members has many issues) but the general concept has proven hugely successful. And what people forget is EU is the cherry on top of a huge stack of treaties which can be extended to 3rd parties independent of full EU membership. Like e.g. Canada, which doesn't plan to become an EU member, but might join some of this treaties as result of the non stop hostility from the US. Same for military treaties between NATO members which are independent of NATO like e.g. JEF, which would likely be open for letting Canada join. Anyway way to many words. But the end result may be a world supper power which is not one entity but a complex lossy coupled network of countries. Then there have been some other cross country unions and countries, which want to gain super power relevance but have so far been too irrelevant due to a combination of corruption, bad luck and sabotage by existing powers etc. But if we speak about going for a few decades without any leading super power and maybe prime canidates harming each other (e.g. a US <-> Chineese war) then they do actually have a chance. |
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| ▲ | gruez 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | >The idea that you "need a single extremely powerful country to replace it or the US will stay in its position" just doesn't add up. I'm not fully sure if that is what you meant but I have seen that argument a few times. The OP goes further than merely claiming that US will lose its spot as the top power. It claims it won't be a world power at all: >in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best For reference, Canada ranks #11 in GDP, below Russia and even Brazil. On military spending it ranks #16, below Poland and Spain. It doesn't have nukes. To suggest US will ever come close to that in 50 years is laughable. | | |
| ▲ | dathinab 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > claims it won't be a world power at all: which is very much possible 50 years once just a blink in human history is today enough to have 2 major industrial revolutions nukes are not an argument for anything but main land defense from invasions Look Russia, it was considered on of the most powerful countries military wise and cleanly in the top 10 economically. Many treated it as a 3rd place behind USA/China. It probably will be neither military nor economically overly relevant in 10 years. Through comparing a war economy with peace economies by most normal usable standards (e.g. GDP) isn't very meaningful. Yes it has nukes, no one will invade it (in a traditional large scale sense out side of some border conflict). But it's economy looks like the kind of war economy which leads to a complete economical collapse once the war ends (i.e. burning core substance) end while it's military could be very experienced now, by treating soldiers as highly disposable its unclear how much that actually is true. Now look at the US, it has lost the majority of soft power thanks to incompetence (and it was maybe the nation with the most effective soft power). It has alienated most of it's allies, especially it's closest allies. Both from a military and economical POV. It's highly dependent on China, and tries to change that have shown very mid to bad outcomes. On the other hand China is increasingly less dependent on it (and the EU) and increasingly less attackable by sea blockades and other non-hot war counter measures the US had. It's behind on automated production. Countries are increasingly less willing to tolerate US bases on their ground which are essential for it being able to project power. The economy is increasingly dependent on a few pillars, which are strong but can crack anyway. The might claim AI leadership, but practically it looks like the price they payed to get there is one which not only will not pay of but can not pay off, it's just way to high. War is also increasingly going back to ways where even if you have superiority the cost of waging it is still severely high, in such a situation you can't force leadership by military force, if you try it likely will end similar to Germany in WW1. Lastly the internal instability Trump has brought by dismantling checks and balances
and arbitrary gutting of programs which turned out pretty essential for stability is bad enough to argue things like a putsch series or civil war being _realistic possibilities_ (not guaranteed at all, but possible where it wasn't realistically possible before). If you put everything together the US dropping temporary out of the top 10 of overall most powerful countries is, not very likely but, very much possible. It does have absurd geographical advantages, and nukes to make sure it keeps them basically for ever (as long as it doesn't splinter which isn't very likely tbh.). So the drop would be most likely be temporary at most. Still it is possible, it's the price to pay for first squandering all trust/goodwill gained from WW2 over a few decades of greedy, egoistic, egocentric, ethical catastrophic politics. And then going complete "unpredictable, untrustable, instabile, high risk, publicly considering to start war with NATO or at least half of the EU (JEF+some others)" in recent years. | | |
| ▲ | ponector 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >> nukes are not an argument for anything but main land defense from invasions But it is not an argument even for that. Imagine Russian tanks are crossing the border towards your capital. Will your government use nukes is such case? |
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| ▲ | daishi55 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| lol… you don’t know anything about the Chinese government if you think they aren’t already preparing for this. And the difference between them and us is that when they prepare for something, they actually prepare for it with real state capacity and planning. You know they are building armies of industrial and humanoid robots for exactly this reason? Also, sorry but the economist hates China with a passion, you really shouldn’t believe a thing they say on the topic. |
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| ▲ | gruez 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Also, sorry but the economist hates China with a passion, you really shouldn’t believe a thing they say on the topic. Note I'm just linking charts and figures, not their editorials. It's ironic that you accuse "economist hates China with a passion", but the best refutation you can come up with is some handwaving about future robot armies. How do we know you're not just hating US (or loving China) with a passion? |
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| ▲ | Hnrobert42 a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Isn't the US also approaching a peak? https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-POPULATION/AGING/gdpzao... There's so many ways to slice the data, I'm not sure there's an apples-to-apples comparison between US and China. However, it's fair to say both economies face demographic headwinds. |