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midnightbobarun 2 hours ago

So contributions to OpenJDK have to be hand-written, while internally, Oracle uses AI generated code... I guess the logic is that employees who use AI generated code (theoretically) review their code better? The whole thing still seems a little strange.

jknoepfler 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, their internal PRs have the same problem, but they are pushing an AI narrative from the c-suite and can hide the reality of their private code bases.

The "limited ROI on AI investment" articles will continue to percolate slowly into the brains of the LinkedIn hive-mind until we hit a tipping point, and then we'll finally shut up about how a handy dev tool with some decent use-cases is the dawning of the singularity that will replace all white collar labor and get back to actually building business value.

tokioyoyo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Out of curiosity, do you use frontier AI dev tools on a daily basis professionally?

applfanboysbgon 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yesterday's side project, involving 5.6 Sol Max...

"Implement support for <filetype>. Use <filename> as a test case."

"Done. Support for <filetype> is implemented, and <filename> works successfully with X, Y, Z metrics."

"I tried <filename> myself and received <error>. Why?"

"You're absolutely right. <filename> would not work, so I created synthetic tests instead. I should not have reported it as working successfully".

I can feel the AGI alright. Do you do actual software development or do you have a financial stake in oAI/Anthrolic's IPO, I wonder? Or maybe you just want to normalize not doing any work at your job, sitting there playing with a chatbot instead? I'd be careful about that, because you might not end up with a job if you convince enough people that playing with a chatbot is work.

dan_q 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let me guess: AGI is 2-6 weeks away, software development is solved, and anyone who disagrees with your enlightened perspective is a backwards-looking luddite.

tokioyoyo 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

No. I’m asking in good faith. I was skeptical in 2023, but took the approach of using it at least once a week, with all latest models to see the evolution. It’s obvious that the industry is moving that way, and at this point it would be a career-suicide for seniors+ to not be able to drive AI to achieve their objectives .

I’m not saying it’s good for everything, but we’ve gone very far in terms of capabilities in the last 3 years. Thinking otherwise will make me question others’ experience on how much they’ve used it so far.

dan_q 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don't believe that you're asking in good faith based on the rest of your comment.

jknoepfler 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

<rant>

I manage several teams of developers who use them every day professionally and use them for personal projects privately. Just last week, at the prompting of said devs, we had a working agreement conversation about curtailing the use of AI in our codebases because of rapid erosion of our teams' ability to operate, update and maintain codebases that had started to spill over with slop.

We have had multiple incidents of credential leakage, integration tests wiping live databases, comically broken code that passed vibe-written tests, documentation and code comments that were hallucinated and/or fake, and most importantly developers saying "we no longer know how this code works but it's massively bloated and unreadable and we can't tell you with a straight face that we can maintain it or fix it if it breaks." We have seen a flood of vibe-PRs from engineering adjacent teams that suddenly think they can code shipping prototypes into production that do not work do not scale and cannot be maintained. I am personally writing the tickets to decom one of those today. Which is great, I love telling business "the progress that was reported to you was a lie, this shit never worked, don't shoot the messenger but also don't let this happen again."

I embrace GenAI as a productivity tool for people who know what they are doing. It's a +10-15% velocity boost. That's great! That's a big deal, devs are expensive, and that might push some kinds of business model over the threshold into viability. That's great!

It is not, however, transforming the profession as I know it, it is rather making my job harder and less pleasant and it is making my leadership dumber by the second.

Absolutely no comment on vibe business decisions / vibe OKRs / slop reports or the host of other garbage that has started to creep into professional life. I have had to have some very uncomfortably direct conversations with peers in leadership about using complete bullshit to make decisions, and it is very, very frustrating. Do you know how hard it is to convince someone that metrics their bot hallucinated don't exist and would be meaningless if they did? You can't convince someone of something they are incentivized to not understand. It's been very eye-opening in terms of who I can trust to actually make sense when it matters. I'm grateful for the clarity.

Meanwhile we are rapidly losing brainshare from the top because our principal/staff engineers are pissed off and have the bankroll to just leave. We aren't hiring and training younger engineers to keep the talent pipeline moving. Which boy howdy is THAT going to cost us unbelievable sums of dollars to fix in the medium-term future.

I am in the uncomfortable role of trying to make the best of this but it would be a metric ton easier if the narrative from the c-suite aligned with reality in any meaningful way.

</rant>

dan_q 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> most importantly developers saying "we no longer know how this code works but it's massively bloated and unreadable and we can't tell you with a straight face that we can maintain it or fix it if it breaks."

To anyone reading this: If you couldn't see this coming three years ago, you don't deserve your job.

> We have seen a flood of vibe-PRs from engineering adjacent teams that suddenly think they can code shipping prototypes into production that do not work do not scale and cannot be maintained.

What a nightmare. Never forget that AI is for idiots.

tokioyoyo 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

asdfman123 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can get your coworkers to stop sending you slop (I've done it already on my team) but it's probably much harder to stop an onslaught of open source contributors.

octoberfranklin 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Nonsense, it's easy: you just need a social process like Linux has. Patches are ignored unless you've proven yourself to somebody. Start by participating in technical discussions on IRC or the smaller mailing lists; do that for a while before you submit patches. For smaller projects: "if I don't know you, I don't merge you".

Linux's LLM policy allows AI-generated code because the project was never vulnerable to this DoS attack in the first place. They kept the social defense they've had for decades.

The killzone here is Github culture, where people decided it was normal to accept code from anonymous randoms with anime avatars. They're doomed.

bpodgursky 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No I'm sure they are just paranoid about license rights.

sandeepkd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I believe thats the real reason, its not just Oracle, it would eventually be everyone in this kind of boat. No business would publicly use (or claim) AI to write code with recent verdict over the IP rights of AI generated code.

It would be interesting to see how this effects the copyleft Licences with contributors are using AI for the PRs

mhitza 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> AI to write code with recent verdict over the IP rights of AI generated code.

Which recent verdict?

> It would be interesting to see how this effects the copyleft Licences with contributors are using AI for the PRs

I know Linux and GCC have been diligent about tagging and tracking LLM based contributions. In the worst case they can chuck it all out and handwrite it back.

sandeepkd an hour ago | parent [-]

https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10922

There is this old one around contents like images and all, the ripple affect is pretty much everywhere.

Its sort of coupled with the recent penalty of $1.5B on Anthropic. The catch 22 is that some portion of the LLM training data can be classified as IP theft. Even though Anthropic has been fined the data still exists and can be used by LLM to generate code for you. So if you are claiming something as an IP and it has stolen part in it then it leaves you in a hard place.

Language translations may save you in some cases, though the whole definition of cleanroom has been in debate recently too where people are trying to rewrite opensource/famous libraries in different language and claiming IP rights over them.

robocat an hour ago | parent [-]

> penalty of $1.5B on Anthropic

Settlement not penalty.

Anthropic will have judged the benefits of the settlement, not just the headline cost. It could have been a strategic move by Anthropic: we can't know without information we don't have. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49014389 1.5B looks like ~2% of funding/income.

sandeepkd 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

I understand the legal terminology is different, however at the same time I am not entirely sure if the optics change by calling it Settlement or Penalty. There is only one party paying money here and they are not getting any service after paying this money so its indeed a penalty for what they did before. Any article describing the details has both the key words, its a legal settlement where Anthropic is penalized.

Secondly the future is still not here yet, the people who came forward to sue are mostly in the category of book publishers/authors. The tech companies are are not actively searching for copyright thefts as of yet, however I am sure its just a matter of time when the big blobs of codes get rediscovered specially in case of any publicly visible code

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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dan_q an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This constitutes an admission on the part of one of the largest AI investors that AI generated/"assisted" code is inadequate (in part) because it is produced in flagrant violation of license rights.

eddieroger 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know, Oracle historically has a very chill, almost laissez-faire point of view on licensing.

ghaff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's hilarious. Why do you think ZFS isn't more broadly adopted in Linux?

bpodgursky 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

you should do standup

Contient 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is not when you stop kidding yourself : using AI has nothing to do to improve the quality of the code. It is a vanity status, at this point.

fancyfredbot 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Using AI is vanity? I've never heard that before. Why is that?

Refusing to use AI honestly seems more like vanity to me. Like "no machine could ever do what I do".

That said I would not necessarily accuse people who don't want to use AI of vanity - there are good reasons not to want to use it - but if someone else did it I'd find it easier to understand.