> I don't agree with the luddite-esque AI views like using ChatGPT makes you dumber and it thinks for you

I believe there are studies that indicate this to be true, however.

wraptile 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I believe there are studies that indicate this to be true, however.

Ironically, only dumb people would draw conclusions from these rage bait "studies". I'm trying to stay open-minded, but these are incredibly unserious papers that just serve Luddite agenda.

If someone has something more convincing than 2% statistical significance of n=40 people clicking mouse slightly slower I'm all ears.

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a2ff6eeb0 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Exactly. In the end, it doesn't matter. We used to value someone having physical strength, but we automated away the need for that kind of work. Now, people lift as a hobby, but strength isn't particularly valued.

If we manage to automate thought so it can atrophy (and, I think we're on the way), intelligence will go the same way as physical strength.

We don't mourn the end of muscles.

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dgellow 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Could we stop with the Luddite label? It’s such a lazy, vague way to gesture that you find some people dumb instead of using a more descriptive term to communicate who you’re referring to. Virtually nobody who would define as AI skeptic or anti-AI identifies as a Luddite

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3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[deleted]

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wraptile 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sadly it's an apt label as many of these people don't even bother invest any effort into critical thinking and are just parotting inaccuracies due to blind bad faith rage. Calling them "skeptics" would give way too much credit as skeptic implies at least some level independent effort.

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amiga386 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Actually, it's an apt label because the machine looms were brought in by factory owners so they could employ less skilled operators who commanded a much lower wage, and the factory owners pocketed the difference. Skilled weavers were up in arms and smashed the machines.

Today, the purpose of AI is not to get a machine to do your job, it's to look good enough to persuade your boss to sack you and split your salary between the boss and the AI company.

	▲	wraptile an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> Skilled weavers were up in arms and smashed the machines. And how did that work out of them? People conveniently ignore that part of history which seems to clearly indicate that outright destruction rarely leads to progress. With AI, I'd argue that we have much more opportunity to steer than to destroy, and the latter is not even a viable option so - why even entertain it at all? It's just raging for raging sake.

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jazzyjackson 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Then you want Lemming, not Luddite. But even then those animals were tossed off a cliff, not blindly following.

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awongh 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For the people who believe this, I think it deeply reflects how they think about all knowledge and the kinds of things they would use this technology for- "finding the answers to things without having to think about them"- that's only one way to use it, and the least compelling way, in my opinion.

	▲	palmotea 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Struggling with things is important for understanding and thinking about things, and AI gives you a way to bypass that struggle. People will take that bypass, because to resist it takes willpower. It makes it harder to follow the path you need to. It's sort of like exercise: it used to be required and unavoidable (you had to walk to get anywhere), now it's optional so most people don't do it with anywhere near enough regularity or intensity.

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refulgentis 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My $0.000002: You dont need a study to know delegating task X can make you worse at task X, nor do you need one to know its vacuously true and avoidable.

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ColdStream 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Pretty much. I don't know the vast majority of phone numbers of family and friends because my phone remembers it for me.

When you delegate demands, you reallocate your resources.

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bulbar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The world is more complex, though: maybe people delegate thinking in some areas to be able to have more resources to think about other areas that are more relevant to them?

	▲	dgellow 6 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Maybe, sure, in the sense that it’s possible. Is it plausible though?

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wraptile 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is not necessarily true if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about it.

If I'm raking leaves all day I eventually reach diminishing returns. My arms might even start to get tired and actually make me lose skill. Now I got a leaf raking robot which is not perfect but does 50% of the job and gives me free time to recover my hands and research new leaf raking techniques, maybe even invest into a leaf blower. Did I not become better at raking leaves?

People are not calculators - all these simplistic takes are frankly insulting to human capability.

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dgellow 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You don’t need to go to irrelevant analogies such as removing leaves. Humans develop expertise by overcoming their struggles. When you delegate thinking and engaging with source material to a software you’re skipping the actual thing that makes us improve intellectually speaking.

Have you never had to learn a new language or a music instrument? AI can just translate a text into your native language, or tell you how the sentence should be built, but you have to actually actively engage with the low level process of trying to do yourself all the little boring things, a lot, for a long time, to develop the intuition and expertise

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wraptile 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You're missing my point entirely. To counter you music example - grinding the same chord over and over does not make you a better musician more than watching youtube videos of other people playing. Skill growth is not as simple as it is in video games - you need variety and rest to actually grow your skill rather than mindless task repetition. This is where AI tools, when used correctly, can result to great growth.

	▲	skinfaxi 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> To counter you music example - grinding the same chord over and over does not make you a better musician more than watching youtube videos of other people playing. It does if you are still learning fingerings. Repetition absolutely helps build skill. Would you argue an athlete standing on a mark and practicing the same shot over and over is not improving their skill?
	▲	dgellow 5 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		You need both, the task repetition and the resting. Even better if the task repetition isn’t mindless, I don’t know why you added that qualifier. And actually, grinding the exact same chord over and over can improve your music. You won’t become a grandiose composer, and even unlikely to become a descent musician from that alone, but you will definitely evolve from a messy play to something more comfortable over time. And likely get ideas and motivation for what to do next. I really don’t think AI tools are good to use as a non expert, they nudge you away from meaningful engagement

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computably 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Did I not become better at raking leaves?

Only in a sense which is obviously not at all what's being discussed. If you hire a personal chef, have you gotten better at cooking? What about a nanny, have you gotten better at raising your children?

Of course automating some cognitive processes can free your time for other, more fulfilling aspects. But there's certainly no guarantee that that's the case.

> People are not calculators - all these simplistic takes are frankly insulting to human capability.

Funny example. Which do you think is more common, people who are innumerate because they believe using a calculator is sufficient, or people who are highly numerate and believe learning arithmetic was a waste of time?

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wraptile 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> If you hire a personal chef, have you gotten better at cooking

Likely yes, as you learn cooking now only by repeatedly cutting carrots the same way you always did but expanding your horizons to new cooking techniques and socializing in the niche will yield much bigger growth.

This Bruce Lee level misconception of "practice the same kick for a thousand times" is extremely outdated perspective on how people actually progress effectively.

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jazzyjackson 3 hours ago | parent [-]

So how best to develop a kick with good form? YouTube is a better way? I really cannot relate to what you are trying to express. I practiced music by drills, it is not doing the same thing repeatedly, you get a little better each time.

	▲	wraptile an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> So how best to develop a kick with good form? Same way you learn anything well - with balance and diversity. You kick, go for a walk, rest, watch youtube, get kicked by other people, talk about kicking on a kicking fans forum. The point is that you can learn faster and be better with AI tools as you can choose when to kick and when you have space for all of those other activities that will still train your kick. Not only that, but this clearly seems like superior human condition where we get to choose our actions rather than be pigeon-held into kicking 8 hours a day. I'm a better programmer now that I can choose not to refactor python for 3 days even though after that I'd surely learn all library APIs by heart. Instead, I can spend 1 day working on initial refactor somewhat learning the APIs and have LLMs take over the rest while I spend other 2 days on other new tasks. I think the confusion here is people assuming that if option of not doing thing exists then people will stop doing it and regress which is a real danger but it's one that can be solved for rather easily. I'd be willing to wager that in 5–20 years we'll have more domain experts than fewer.

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yunnpp 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can't be dumber if you're already dumbmaxxed.