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tejohnso 2 hours ago

So you're forced to join a gang and fight their rival gangs, or you form your own gang equipped with rifles and grenades ready to commit violence, so that you can fight against joining that gang, or any other gang. Either way you're in a violent gang.

I guess I'd rather have the state maintain a monopoly on violence.

inigyou 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

These gangs are states. We can tell this because they have monopolies on violence.

arjie 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The entire reason there is any conflict there is a lack of a monopoly on violence… The monopoly part is significant. It’s not just “doing a lot of”.

threatofrain an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think you need total control, just enough so that you're the go-to party for diplomatic and military negotiations in the geopolitical region.

gibbitz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In this case it's like cable TV. Only not a monopoly if you look at the whole country...

psionides 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Personally I would prefer no violence from either side…

ahartmetz 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The state monopoly on violence (+ a judicial system) tends to result in a low amount of violence... at least intra-state. Wars are another matter. Notably, there is no monopoly on violence between states. States are allowed and somewhat expected to be violent psychopaths externally.

moralestapia 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Personally, I would prefer 10B USD liquid and tax-free

cucumber3732842 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The conflict isn't because of the lack of monopoly. The conflict and lack of monopoly are because whoever as the closest thing to a monopoly is doing such a bad job.

inigyou an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

So Russia isn't a state?

ifwinterco 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reminds me of when ISIS was at its peak a few years ago and the BBC and all other news in the UK would always prefix it with “the so-called Islamic State”.

Like… no, it was a state. It had borders, it had a monopoly on violence within those borders, it collected taxes, it provided some public services.

Whether it offended the BBC’s sensibilities or not, it was a state

zhoBEENG an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are completely correct. As much as many people don´t want to hear it, Mexico is a failing state. It´s extremely obvious when you are there that the United Mexican States lost most of the reins some time ago.

It started with the debt crisis, and its causes, but was definitively realized by 1994 when the Zapatistas took much of Chiapas.

Too much emphasis is put on the drug cartels alone, when the problem is much larger. I suspect by the end of the century maps will no longer show Mexico in its current form.

alephnerd 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd put it the other way - the state turned into gangs.

Most of the core leadership of major cartels who haven't been arrested were mid-level officers in the DFS (Mexico's version of Italy's SID and Turkey's MIT from Operation Gladio days).

And what is interesting isn't the narcos who are arrested and indicted by the DoJ, but those who are arrested and then let go.

The story of Salvador Cienfuegos is a good example of that - arrested by the DEA on drug charges that were sealed while being Defense Minister, but charges were dropped for diplomatic reasons [0]. Meanwhile, giants like El Chapo or El Viceroy were successfully extradited or in the case of El Mencho killed.

To me, it feels like "untouchables" like Cienfuegos, Adán Augusto López, and Marcelo Ebrard or established networks even above them are likely running the show, sort of like how the KGB broke bad in the 90s or the Turkish military in the 1980s-2000s.

[0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/08/magazine/mexico-general-c...

an hour ago | parent | prev [-]
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patcon 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, not all violence is the same.

But further, perhaps our sense of morality atrophies when we concede the idea of just violence (just as in "justice") only to the state.

I presume those fighting the cartels might have more of a developed sense of civic pride and duty than anyone in a more stable place. Perhaps I'm wrong though

monkaiju 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not sure its fair to equate a gang fueled by drug smuggling to a self-defense militia.

wmf 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Without oversight, a self-defense militia may expand beyond its original scope in unfortunate ways. The history of the Italian Mafia can be instructive here.

cwnyth an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apparently, words can just mean whatever people want, so long as it aligns with one's feelings or helps them feel superior to others.

tejohnso an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, I guess "self-defense militia" aligns more closely with some people's feelings than "violent gang" does. To each his own.

eth0up an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

In case you need one, you have made a friend. Excellent comment, which fits the scene as might a custom tailored glove.

14 an hour ago | parent [-]

The reminded me of Johnnie Cochran "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit" slogan he used during the O.J. Simpson murder trial.

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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eth0up 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

inigyou 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

monkaiju an hour ago | parent [-]

Oh yeah, you wont catch me defending the US government one bit.

What I'm saying is a group of people in a community taking up arms to defend themselves is not inherently the same as a drug cartel.

tejohnso an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The only equating I did was to point out that either way you're stuck having to align with a group of people willing and ready to commit lethal violence with lethal weapons.

Use whatever words you want but I think that's clearly violent and it's clearly a gang, which by definition is "a group of persons working together" or even more specifically, "a group of persons working to unlawful or antisocial ends". In this case the newly formed gang is certainly unlawful.

unclad5968 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure that it's certainly unlawful to defend yourself against gang violence, but I'm not a Mexican lawyer. It's such an odd thing to say that people defending their homes are now a gang because they fight back against the cartel.

crypttales 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]