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Beating GPT-5.6 Sol on retrieval with 100x cheaper open models(neon.com)
75 points by moonikakiss 2 hours ago | 13 comments
mrinterweb an hour ago | parent | next [-]

There is so much opportunity for purpose built models like this. Ideally a harness should spin up a subagent to offload to targeted models for specific tasks like this. I know this is not a novel idea. Claude code does some of this by handing off the "explore" agent work to haiku. I just love seeing that specialized LLMs are being developed.

Malp an hour ago | parent | next [-]

There are! Chroma has Context1, SID has SID-1, and you'd actually be surprised at how easy it is to post-train your own with pretty good pass@ recall@ ndcg@ etc.

There's also Hornet who have shared some interesting talks & blogs lately. I don't know that I'd exclusively use agents for retrieval the way Neon outlines here as well. I think distillation similar to what ZeroEntropy has done for bespoke retrieval & reranking with _some_ agent manipulation on top-k results works better (IME).

devolving-dev 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Models keep on improving though, so doesn't fine tuning become an ongoing task with ongoing maintenance burden?

kumama 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

(one of the blog post authors here) -> once you set up a finetuning pipeline, it's often trivial to rerun it on top of a new open weights model. so, it's orthogonal to base model improvements

foota an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I feel like the future is people building applications with tightly integrated LLMs that work hand in hand with the application's own lifecycle and code.

I also didn't realize that people were using agentic harnesses for search, it's an interesting idea. If the context length is short enough it should be fairly cheap compared to running "normal" agentic coding workloads where you have O(100k) context length for doing almost anything.

breadislove 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On what do you guys test the model. Its very dubious that there is no common retrieval benchmark such as browsecomp plus or similar tested. And what metric do you report?

aliljet an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is a more serious question in here that's not being answered. How effective is the retrieval in finding buried needles in larger and larger haystacks. And there's a correlary question, how effective could you be in finding paired needles in that haystack where you need to hold a needle to unlock finding another needle.

JCharante 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have done my own testing and found that smaller models can beat their larger siblings on fact retrieval from documents. I haven’t investigated it in depth with a large enough dataset but my guess is that larger models overthink it while smaller ones just do it. I would like if they compared this with 5.6 Luna instead.

barake 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Anecdotally, it feels like Opus, Fable, and Sol "get distracted" when you use them for writing code. Great at reasoning and coordination but they will go off on a tangent and refactor half the code base. I only use them for reasoning (of course) and coordinating subagents.

andrenotgiant 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Any data or public links you can share? That surprises me

ramon156 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bit unrelated, I realized that z.ai gives you access to deepseek 4 flash. It's incredible how well it performs when given a detailed spec. I'm not sure I've seen a model one-shot like that, and I was already impressed by gemma 4's speed and efficiency.

swiftcoder 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Deepseek flash (especially after the recent update) has to be one of the most slept-on models. Price-performance is ridiculous, and its available on a number of cheap coding subscriptions

richwater 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

One thing that plagues [insert current FAANG] is the large amount of corpus knowledge that is outdated/misleading or just plain wrong. I'm curious how this addresses that if it's deriving the reward function from the corpus itself.