| ▲ | briga 3 hours ago |
| The central premise of this post is basically not true: working conditions and wages have pretty consistently improved over the past 200 years. The cases where it didn't were generally offset by the rest of society benefiting from increased automation and productivity. Where the current revolution will lead remains unclear, but if the past is any indication things will probably continue to improve for most people. |
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| ▲ | RugnirViking 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > pretty consistently improved I can accept the premise that condiitions have improved, but not that it was consistent. It seems to me that it was anything but; more like extremely spiky. great depression, postwar economic miracle. Massive labor movements rose and fell, general strikes... Plus most countries have had several wars + revolutions in the last 200 years, including two world wars. Not all of those are to do with technology, but I also dont think technology wasnt indirectly responsible for the conditions that created some of them |
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| ▲ | i000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Such a good comment, I would also add how much our perception of technology lifting conditions is conflated with the increased ability of governments to steer the economy to smooth things over. | | |
| ▲ | hparadiz 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | All of those problems had nothing to do with technology and everything to do with economic mismanagement. And the commies were the worst at it. The US never had famines even at the worst of the great depression. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How much of the last ~25 years of outsized capital returns in the US came from selling our industrial base to the Communist Party of China? |
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| ▲ | regularization an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The US Department of Labor measures wages, and adjusted for inflation the hourly wage is below what it was in 1973. It is even lower if you are only counting non-management roles then and now. Wages have not gotten better over the past half century they have gotten worse. Workers now work more hours pee year to try to catch up to what they made back then, so working conditions are worse now as well. |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This corresponds with the increasing share of the economy consumed by the government. > the hourly wage This is a misleading statistic. The actual statistic is "total employee compensation", which includes the benefits packages, the (so-called) employer contribution to SS, 401k employer contributions, etc. The TEC is often worth up to 150% of the wages. | | |
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| ▲ | siavosh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think you're conflating productivity growth with distribution. Technology increased wealth, but whether workers shared in those gains depended heavily on bargaining power and institutions. |
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| ▲ | cluckindan 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Everything changed with floating currency. Inflation became a tool for centralization of ownership. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The Robber Barons were able to r>g their empires just fine in gold-backed currency. The Cantillon Pump is only one of several major "rich get richer" mechanisms in the economy. It is not the most important, and it does not consistently run in the same direction (wages can inflate faster than assets). | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Inflation is caused by deficit spending. It is a tool for government to increase spending without raising taxes. | | |
| ▲ | barrkel 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Inflation is an increase in the cost of living. It can be caused by deficit spending. It can also be caused by supply shocks. For example, if you restrict building new housing, the price of housing will increase, both rents and house prices. If you tariff imports, a basket including those goods will rise in price to the degree those imports are not substituable. If you start a war in the Middle East, oil prices will rise, and increased energy costs can feed into lots of different things, raising prices. |
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| ▲ | heylook 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're missing the trees for the forest. The Industrial Revolution was terrible for the people who were working during it. Their jobs got eliminated and they only sorta sometimes were able to retrain for the new jobs, and the working conditions in those new jobs were atrocious, exactly because they were new enough that we didn't yet have safety regulations for them. It was only their children who eventually saw any improvement in working/living conditions, and it was only because of all the absolutely awful things that happened to their parents. Safety regulations are written in blood. It only looks like consistent improvement if you zoom out to a level that obscures intra-generation experiences. At the level of the actual human beings subjected to the turbulence, it was awful. |
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| ▲ | bunderbunder 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’ve seen a similar thing with globalization. Macro scale, it’s great. Much number go up. Zoom in, though, and it also impoverished my hometown and many others like it. A whole generation saw their job prospects gutted, and had no realistic options for a career shift because it’s really hard to get an entry level position when you’re middle aged; doubly so when there’s a glut of middle aged people looking for jobs. And waving away the pain those people experience with an appeal to large scale, intergenerational, historical trends is simply heartless. | |
| ▲ | mplewis 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Exactly. Workplaces became safer and more equitable to the laborers despite technological advances, not because of them. |
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| ▲ | janalsncm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > working conditions and wages have pretty consistently improved over the past 200 years Really depends on the group of people you are including. In the US the middle class has been eviscerated to the point where raising a family on a single income is not a realistic goal for most people. |
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| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >to the point where raising a family on a single income is not a realistic goal for most people. Was this ever true? During the 1950s, (the perceived heyday of American middle class wealth) the female labor force participation rate was 35%[1], which was close half of the male labor force participation rate. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002 [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300001 | | |
| ▲ | janalsncm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1) Based on your numbers, 65% of women were not working at that time. 2) That 35% number was likely even lower for married women. 3) Racism was still a systemic problem and was bad. Black men were excluded from the GI bill for example. 4) In spite of that, the median American household needed only 2x their salary to buy the median house. That number is 5x today, and after taxes the ratios are 2.2x then vs 6x today, when two adults are often working rather than one. 5) In short, Americans are working much harder today. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | >4) In spite of that, the median American household needed only 2x their salary to buy the median house. That number is 5x today, and after taxes the ratios are 2.2x then vs 6x today, when two adults are often working rather than one. Sources for these numbers? Also, housing is only a fraction of your costs. | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Compare the median house in 1950 with one today. | | |
| ▲ | janalsncm an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not hard to do. A lot of them are for sale today and will sell over asking, no contingencies. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | A housing development nearby my home was built in the early 1960s (I think). If you look closely at the homes, they are all of two designs, made into four by mirror images. But it's pretty clear that over time the homes were remodeled, gut remodeled, extended, garages added, and so on, so they are significantly improved over the original. I've been in a couple, and the hallways are pretty narrow and everything is very cheaply built. If you want to see what they were like originally, see the old Bob Hope movie "Bachelor in Paradise", filmed at a just-built suburban community. |
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| ▲ | dumberquestions an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Have people's standards for what a house constitutes gone up, or are affordable options that people would be very willing to buy less available now? | | |
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| ▲ | VirusNewbie 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The reason the 'middle class' is smaller is because more families have become "upper middle class". All the data shows this. You can argue that housing is too much or that inflation hasn't benefited the right things, but to say that the middle class is shrining just doesn't match reality. | | |
| ▲ | janalsncm an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | “Upper middle class” has nothing to do with it. In 1950, the median household could buy a house with 2 years of income. That is, 50% of households could do this. Today, the median house costs $400k. Only the top 12-14% of households make 200k per year. So proportionally, the % of households that have the same buying power as a median 1950s household has shrunk roughly 4x. | | | |
| ▲ | t-writescode an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The only way one can claim that the middle class isn’t shrinking is to have a floating definition of the middle class. If you lock it in any way to something like “home ownership and simple vacations once a year” (which was absolutely possible in the 90s), it has plummeted. | | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The data that deflate with CPI? The metric notorious for laundering forced substitution into voluntary substitution? The American Dream is to Owner's Imputed Rent a house? I love BLS, they do a lot of thankless work very well, but if you give someone else control of the inflation basket you are letting them pick any slope for these graphs that they want. Don't do that. It's the economic equivalent of handing your passport to an employer, talking about your net worth in public, or signing a blank check. Just don't. Yeah, we're all busy, you probably don't have time to construct a basket more sophisticated than "gold" or "housing" -- but even though those both have big problems, they still aren't as bad long-term as CPI. Or maybe you disagree and think the CPI basket and hedonic adjustment methodology compounds better for your purposes, but if so you should be able to roughly account for the dramatic difference and articulate why. |
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| ▲ | noosphr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 2026 - 200 = 1826 Yeah no. It's only since 1950 that conditions improved for everyone. Before then everything from sewage, to coal smoke, to chronically low wages made life worse for everyone involved. The most miserable people to live in history were the British working class in the mid/late 19th century. |
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| ▲ | nubg 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > The most miserable people to live in history were the British working class in the mid/late 19th century. I find this topic very interesting, do you have any reading you could recomment on this? |
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| ▲ | georgemcbay 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > working conditions and wages have pretty consistently improved over the past 200 years They've improved, but not consistently on human timescales. Being a worker in the pre-labor-movement industrial revolution was by all accounts horrendous. Things have, so far, trended better over time but they can be bad for whole generations and also past results do not guarantee future results. > The cases where it didn't were generally offset by the rest of society benefiting from increased automation and productivity. I don't think we can sweep the worst parts of it under the rug because the bad impacts are only happening to "the poors". And anyway when it comes to the current tech revolution, it is likely that almost all of us are going to be "the poors". |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Being a worker in the pre-labor-movement industrial revolution was by all accounts horrendous. Average height and life expectancy improved steadily in the US throughout the 19th century. The pre-Revolutionary Americans tended to live short and backbreaking lives. Take a tour through Fort Williams. There is a collection of clothing from the Revolutionary War. The baby clothes look like doll clothes, and the adult clothes look like they were for boys. Then look at the clothing in the Gettysburg museums. The people were taller then, but still about the size of boys. | | |
| ▲ | miyoji 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Take a tour through Fort Williams. There is a collection of clothing from the Revolutionary War. The baby clothes look like doll clothes, and the adult clothes look like they were for boys. Then look at the clothing in the Gettysburg museums. The people were taller then, but still about the size of boys. I don't think that's a correct interpretation, see the explanation here [0]. Not quite the same situation, but likely a similar case. Are you sure the "adult" clothes weren't made for young boys or teens, or women? [0] https://dyckmanfarmhouse.org/people-were-shorter-back-then-r... I don't think your statement about short lives in colonial America is correct either, they had a low life expectancy like everyone else, but mostly due to a lot of childbirth deaths and young infant deaths. Surviving childhood gave you a good shot at making it to your 70s, which has been true for a long time pretty much everywhere. |
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| ▲ | palmotea 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I don't think we can sweep the worst parts of it under the rug because the bad impacts are only happening to "the poors". We can and we will. If you read HN for any period of time, you'll probably read at least 5 apologia for the harms caused by prior technological change for every one critique or expression of sympathy. After all, we're well-indoctrinated software engineers, and most of the rest are temporarily embarrassed billionaires. We know what we're supposed to think. > And anyway when it comes to the current tech revolution, it is likely that almost all of us are going to be "the poors". Not me! I'm 100x AI engineer who will certainly remain comfy an secure. LLMs are awesome! It's all those luddite doomer jerks who cling to their old ways of understanding how things work and manual coding that are going to be poor, and they deserve it. | | |
| ▲ | rafaelRiv an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Not me! I'm 100x AI engineer who will certainly remain comfy an secure. LLMs are awesome! It's all those luddite doomer jerks who cling to their old ways of understanding how things work and manual coding that are going to be poor, and they deserve it. We will see in 5 years ! I think you highly overestimate llms | | |
| ▲ | nubg 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Funnily enough, the parent made the point that people probably overestimate their position in the future pecking order, and did so sarcastically, which you seemed to have completely missed (probably due to being ESL), something even a current LLM would easily "understand", thus proving his point. |
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| ▲ | Fricken 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Labour conditions in the capitalist west 200 years ago were some of the worst in history, so it's easy to make yourself look good in comparison. |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Now compare that against: 1. working conditions before 200 years ago 2. working conditions under feudalism and communism 3. explain why ships laden with scores of millions of people came to the US, and went back empty |
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