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dghlsakjg 5 hours ago

I know everyone wants to crap all over these setups that are impractical, but this is how progress happens.

People will keep plugging away at this and figure out how to avoid wearing the hard drive, how to make it run faster, custom hardware buses etc.

Keep going! I personally can't wait for the day when a 1t param model runs off a $200 SSD instead of a $50k rack of Nvidia chips.

gpt5 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most people are already used to rely on the internet on basically everything. At best, they download a tiny chunk of entertainment from it when they go on a plane, and as soon as they land they immediately abandon that offline chunk.

In addition, LLMs, small or large, are highly parallelizable. This means that running on the same machine/GPUs many requests in parallel is significantly more efficient, and the sum of tok/s will far outweight any single user use case.

Those two combined means that unless LLMs reach the state of 'good enough' (TBD), I fully expect the economics and people's interest to align with 99%+ of LLM usage would be in centralized servers. (not dismissing the fact that there are use cases for local LLMs, and that the progress matters).

hobofan 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Those two combined means that unless LLMs reach the state of 'good enough'

Once you are able to not just go on-premise, but on-device, there a boatload of other advantages than efficiency (network independence, privacy, etc.) that make it attractive.

Tiny language models are already plenty "good enough" for a lot of on-device use-cases. E.g. there are a lot of things, that can be reformulated as ranking problems, where you can apply pairwise ranking, which even small language models are good at.

anon373839 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect the economics favor centralized servers, if you only look at the aggregated cost to serve X number of users' tokens. But we could say the same thing about a lot of the computation that iPhones do locally. They could have been much thinner clients, but instead they now have more compute power than desktops had when iPhones launched.

zozbot234 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> I suspect the economics favor centralized servers, if you only look at the aggregated cost to serve X number of users' tokens.

The economics of real-time, low-latency inference of very large near-SOTA models will heavily favor a centralized setup. But if you can afford to wait for your answer - be it a day, a week, or even more at the extreme low end (or if you just stick to leaner models for your relatively quick replies) the economics start to shift in a very clear way. A slow-going local inference setup relying on cheap SSD offload does not need the high power input of a datacenter rack, and the cooling load is outright trivial - even when working on many requests in parallel, which (in a SSD offload context) is what maximizes throughput even for local inference. These are serious problems for centralized inference that will probably limit the scale at which it can be applied.

gpt5 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

iPhone are in practice more reliant on central servers than ever before. Except for some games, if you take a random person's iPhone it becomes almost useless without internet connection. Which is exactly my point, it's not about compute, it's about people's expecations and priorities. The main driver of the need for higher performance chips on iPhones is its camera and smooth 120fps UI animations, not local processing for apps for almost all people.

However, the compute situation just skew it even further when it comes to LLMs.

anon373839 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Phones are communication devices. So I would always expect connectivity to be central to their use. But that's a different issue than the "inefficiency" of edge computation and whether powerful edge devices can sell (they obviously can).

xyzsparetimexyz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A lot of the compute that iPhones do either has high bandwidth requirements (photo editing etc) or low latency requirements (games etc). LLMs are an interesting case where unless you're feeding in images, it's just text

mihaaly 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a nice personal point of view. And you don't care much about privacy or being exposed to the conduct of others completely, do you?

submeta 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t understand the downvotes. It’s perfectly reasonable to disagree, but the argument is laid out clearly. Why not engage with it instead?

croes 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So every script kiddie gets its Mythos to hack sides and scammers don’t need AI services anymore.

That time won’t be as much fun as you think

cromka 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

By that time the same Mythos class run on specialized hardware 5 years earlier will have fixed the same bugs that the Mythos class on consumer devices could have exploited.

We'll be fine.

marci 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems like what Apple's going for with afm3. Their latest model that will be embedded in macOS 27 is a quantized dense 20B that only select between 1 to 4B at inference, based on the prompt, not token by token. If only they could make a 100B or 400B dense that selects ~5 to 15B...

josu an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't understand, if they are only using a subset of the tokens then it's a sparse model. What do you mean by dense?

l33tman an hour ago | parent [-]

Could it be some sort of permanently routed MoE where they detect and switch for the whole prompt instead of token by token?

arjie 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Haha 1T on $50k might be a bit hopeful, mate, even at FP8. But I too am hopeful.

apimade 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

8800 GTX in 2006. Cutting-edge, an insanely powered consumer card for the time. Theoretically around 0.3456 TFLOPS.

1080 GTX in 2016. Cutting-edge, an insanely powerful consumer card for the time. Theoretically around 8.87 to 8.9 TFLOPS.

5090 RTX in 2026. Cutting-edge, an insanely powerful consumer card for today. Theoretically around 104.8 TFLOPS.

In the same timeframe mobile processor CPU's went from 0.001 TFLOPS, to today's Apple's A19 Pro chip which delivers 2.074 TFLOPS.

That's _without_ getting into ASIC's, or purpose-built hardware like Taalas's model on silicon HC1, or generic AI dies like what they're planning with HC2 or Cerebras, which will massively compress the timeline.

flaburgan 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah but here you describing the opposite phenomenon. You're saying that the hardware is going to become cheaper and more powerful with the years, to the point a current State of the Art model from today will run on a normal consumer hardware in ten years. What people are trying to do now is the opposite, optimize the software as much as possible so that it does not need the best hardware but the normal one we currently have. As if we were trying to make a current AAA game to run smoothly on the 1080 GTX of your example.

dtj1123 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

No, both of these things can happen in parallel.

The suggestion is that a 1T model could be made to run on cheap consumer hardware of the future.

root_axis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ok, now do memory capacity and bandwidth - the things that actually constraint local LLMs.

apimade an hour ago | parent [-]

8800 GTX in 2006: 768 MB of GDDR3, with 86.4 GB/s of theoretical memory bandwidth.

GTX 1080 in 2016: 8 GB of GDDR5X, with 320 GB/s.

RTX 5090 in 2026: 32 GB of GDDR7, with 1.792 TB/s.

This is fun, what's next?!

PCI 8.0 is breaking 1TB/s, GDDR7 is 1TB/s.

With just the _current_ timeline, things are looking like they'll compress once we get over this initial lump.

foxrider an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Speaking of ASICs - how likely is it that as models get better we'll see someone baking a whole model directly into the silicon? It's like having l0 cache.

kaelwd 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Only 8B currently but it's been done: https://taalas.com/products/

SJC_Hacker 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

You could do it but there would be no point, The only advantage over would be power consumption. And it would be quite expensive.

At the rate models are improving, it would be obsolete in six months.

HPsquared 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

Power consumption and latency are very important on mobile

naasking 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

They're important everywhere of course, but especially on mobile. If AI reaearchers figure out how to offload knowledge and expertise from reasoning weights, then a core reasoning ASIC linked to the knowledge would totally rock.

jack_pp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Isn't there such a thing as low hanging fruit?

Aren't we already approaching theoretical physical limits? We're at 2nm

kaashif 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

(1) Yes.

(2) Are you saying that you think we're at the limits of computing in general, or that specific technology?

We know, for example, that a human brain level intelligence is possible to run on a human brain. We are nowhere near that. And actually that's not even a physical limit necessarily.

But that is...not a low hanging fruit.

fragmede 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> We are nowhere near that.

Nowhere?

darkwater an hour ago | parent [-]

Leaving aside the discussion on LLMs intelligence vs human intelligence, on a purely energy consumption level we are definitely and without any possible questioning nowhere near that indeed.

cvak 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

we are not at 2nm, we just call it that.

zmmmmm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sadly while the FLOPS are increasing nicely, total graphics memory is stalled in consumer cards by comparison.

xbmcuser 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We will see such power and price now only when AI market crashes or China reaches node parity and goes after market share as currently the way they are buying out most of the latest node production the consumer prices will only be palatable to the very rich or we will need to be happy with older slower nodes

cududa 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just a note that I think the direction most people are paying attention to is memory bandwidth; thats the real bottleneck and “number go up” but also constraint people are designing around

formerly_proven 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except the 499$ of a 1080 GTX inflation-adjusted only buys you a 5070 or 5070 Ti even by MSRP.

hedora 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AMD already demonstrated 1T on strix halo clusters. << $10K at original MSRP.

sh3rl0ck an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

We'd bought 4 x $11K Mac Studios at my college and via exo, we had Kimi K2.5 at 30 TPS.

Not too wild an idea!