I laugh the same at their imploding automotive industry. Nothing ironic, nothing mean. They missed the stop and it's funny how they're not in the bus.

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la_fayette 2 days ago | parent [-]

let's see how this turns out, but I would not underestimate the german engineering culture...

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asdf88990 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The German Engineering is a byproduct. The culture that created is also the one that is holding it from becoming competitive with Chinese automakers.

Like almost everything, utility and efficiency is relative and dependent on the environment and external factors. People often overlook the “fit”.

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Propelloni 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They said the same when Japanese car makers were trashing European and US manufacturers in the 1980s. Yet they adapted. Then they said the same when the South Koreans trashed them, yet they adapted. Now they say the same about the Chinese.

Sure, past performance is no indicator of future performance, but all the doom-saying and hysterics are just that, fear of the unknown.

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asdf88990 2 days ago | parent [-]

They adopted in the sense of surviving. Considering their head start and massive government support for the industry, their market share compared to Japanese and Korean cars is a joke, with the Chinese it will get even worst because this time they will be pushed out of their home market too.

This comes from a die hard bmw fan. Facts over feelings.

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Propelloni 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not a car fan of any kind or shape. I'm talking about things that happened. I say let's wait and see. You say you know the future. You tell me "facts over feelings".

I accept your negative outlook and respect your right to hold that opinion. But, and I'm saying this in the most respectful way possible, let's have a little intellectual honesty here, please. Your statement is more speculation than mine.

	▲	asdf88990 a day ago \| parent [-]
		Of course it is speculation. I don’t have a magic ball. But only a fool ignores trends!

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glimshe 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'd like better understand the German engineering culture. Why was it special in the past? What about today?

As a kid in the 80s, I had some things from Germany and their quality was astounding. Fast forward to present time, our Volkswagen car made in Germany is the worst car I've ever had in terms of reliability.

PS: an honest question getting downvotes?

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rmoriz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

There is no incentive to build a reliable product that can‘t compete in price. People are trained to consume and throw away. People are getting used to throw away cloths and household appliances after 1-3 years.

Miele once built washing machines that outlast 30 years. They offered spare parts and regional service hubs. But the market decided to just buy the 50% cheaper ones every 5 years.

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holowoodman 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

In the last 25 years, German companies got into "reliability engineering". Which is the art of adjusting your drawings in such a way that every component lasts exactly as long as it has to, and not a second longer.

Which is why back in the day, there were some car/washing machine/tool brands and models that seemed to last forever. Whereas now the current models last exactly their warranty/leasing period.

Edit: Other manufacturers do this, too. But for them, it's often coming from the other side of the reliability curve, so they are improving, the ones that were better back then are getting worse.

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glimshe 2 days ago | parent [-]

What I'm trying to understand is why Toyotas can still make great cars at prices comparable, if not inferior, to Germany's (at least here in the US). There's a quality gap there. I don't understand why German cars used to be great looking AND reliable but no longer.

	▲	holowoodman 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Toyota builds cars that a private person might want to buy. Their market is real people who want to keep the car for longer, pay for their own maintenance and maybe even do their own oil changes. And who maybe want to put some kids in the back seat and stuff the trunk full of their shopping. Many German manufacturers (esp. the "premium" ones) don't build for people. They build mostly cars that get leased as company cars. So price isn't that much of an issue, longevity beyond the 4 year leasing term isn't a problem, excessive maintenance isn't a problem since it'll be included in the lease. Oh, and the trunk is just for a laptop bag and the overnight clothes for that one passenger anyways, so nobody cares it's impractically small. Also, from what I know, design cycles for German cars are relatively long. A model won't just be changed, at least not once per year (as USians seem to expect to the dismay of German manufacturers). While this is great for cost-optimizing the manufacturing process and might be nice because replacement parts are easier to find, this has a downside: Japanese car makers practice continuous improvement, meaning that a change can go in at any time, as long as it seems advantageous. So maybe they learn more quickly from their past mistakes and overall build a more solid engineering experience through this continuous fiddling...

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fluxflexer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They still do. But as you said,most people go for the 300€ product and not Miles 900€ one. I had the chance to tour their electronics production lines in Gütersloh, Germany a few years ago which were top notch, almost automotive standard, and they told me, that they plan, develop and manufacture for 18 yrs lifetime. Not sure how long the cheaper products last, any experience?

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kevin_thibedeau a day ago | parent [-]

The problem is that even if you want to pay a premium, you can't be sure you're getting a better, more reliable product. It's safer to gamble on the economy option and replace as needed.

If you inflation adjust prices of mid-range major appliances from the 80s they'd be massively expensive today. The price differential is the quality that has been engineered out of all products to be competitive.

	▲	qu4z-2 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yeah, even if you look up reviews of a particular model, chances are the manufacturer doesn't make that one anymore (it's over a year old!) and just has some seemingly-identical one with different failure modes. I'd love to buy quality products (and do when I can!) but it's really hard to get good information as a buyer.

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2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

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holowoodman 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I'd like better understand the German engineering culture. Why was it special in the past? What about today?

German engineering culture is to think things through. To take everything into account. To do it properly, and not mess around. To rather think a bit more and make sure you get everything right.

Basically very similar to German rules culture.

Problem is, both of these cultures have their downsides as well. Rules as well as plans get overengineered. The belief that "one more rule can't hurt". The belief that "taking a step back yet again and discussing it a bit more is always worth it". At some point, you get stuck in a maze of rules, contradictory plans, meetings over meetings with no action. Engineers are scared to invent and engineer, because there surely will be some rule that could be violated...

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wolfi1 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm waiting to see Siemens producing EV cars

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inatreecrown2 2 days ago | parent [-]

That would sure be interesting. Or maybe Bosch and Braun too.

	▲	fifilura 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Bosch already makes half of your car. Just their brand is not at the front.

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schrijver 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Since dieselgate I no longer believe in German engineering. That, and that they just can’t make their trains run on time. Never have I taken an ICE train that was not delayed. How could that happen in an actual engineering culture?