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smitty1e 20 hours ago

An interesting tangent to the language discussion is the Epic of Gilgamesh => https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-the-epic-o...

retrac 19 hours ago | parent [-]

You know how people learn Ancient Greek to study Homer in the original language?

Gilgamesh deserves that. I'm only a beginner but the refinement of the poetry is already obvious even as someone who doesn't know the language.

Euphony was very important to the Mesopotamian poets. They liked rhythms and alliteration and assonance. And the late editions of Gilgamesh reflect about two thousand years of iterative improvement:

> ilū işinu iriša. ilū kima zūmbē eli bēl niqi iptaḫru. ("The gods could smell the fragrance. They gathered around the sacrificiant like flies.")

The ş is probably an affricate like ts, š is sh, q like in Arabic, ḫ like German ch. Vowels like in Spanish or the phonetic alphabet. Macron means a long vowel. Stress on the penultimate. (Edit: fixed ş / š)

It really rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?

> ibri kudanu ťardu akkannu ša šadi nimru ša şēri ("my friend the swift driven mule, wild ass of the mountains, panther of the wild")

> ibri ša arammušu danniš ittīa ittallaku kalu marşāti ("my friend, whom I loved greatly, who journeyed with me through every hardship")

> ikšudāššu šimat ("fate overtook [him...]" the tablet breaks off here)

whythismatters 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>The ş is like sh, š is regular s

That's not correct, in transcriptions of Akkadian š is pronounced sh (Heb. shin), ṣ (not ş) is pronounced ts (Heb. tsade), and there's also s, pronounced as regular s.

schoen 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Is it possible that the Hebrew consonants' pronunciations don't align fully with their cognate consonants' pronunciations in Akkadian? This is certainly true among other Semitic languages, that there are drifts over time in the values of consonants.

whythismatters 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Valid point, while cognatic kinship can be clearly established through afro-asiatic linguistics, that doesn't say anything about actual pronunciation. My comment wasn't meant as an absolute statement, but merely reflects the scientific consensus on the matter, i.e. how an assyriologist would read those characters in a transliterated text out loud. With cuneiform languages we're talking millennia, so of course there has been considerable variety (space) and change (time) in pronunciation, some of it reflected in writing, cf. Assyrian vs Babylonian dialects. I could imagine that ṣ pronounced as "ts" may have been inferred/validated for specific timeframes through variant "spelling", or maybe indirectly via e.g. Hittite or Old Persian, but that's just a wild guess.

schoen 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Thanks for the explanation! Yeah, I guess it's a similar or at least analogous situation for Proto-Indo-European, where there might be conventional ways to pronounce reconstructed forms, and some evidence about what is more and less likely, but people don't really know. There are even some reconstructed consonants where they actively have no definite consensus at all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laryngeal_theory#Pronunciation

I guess it's quite an imperfect analogy, because we have Akkadian writing (by people who actually spoke the language) and we have no equivalent at all for PIE.

mdp2021 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Gilgamesh deserves that

The very moral in Gilgamesh deserves that. "I went in a quest for immortality; I did not achieve it and came back, and while returning I saw in the distance the City I built, and I understood what my immortality was...".

(A "must" of an insight for engineers, architects, builders...)

layer8 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The longevity of a city is difficult to achieve as an engineer/architect/builder nowadays. One might have better chances as a scientist.

otabdeveloper4 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're possibly misreading that.

In the Bible the city builder was Cain, and he built it because he was a criminal and needed protection from the world when he lost God's grace.

I.e., the message is that a city is a kind of protective exoskeleton or "safe space" when man becomes estranged from God (the Universe).

It's a story about man's fragility and ultimate futility.

carefree-bob 16 hours ago | parent [-]

That is a very idiosyncratic interpretation of the tables of patriarchs in Genesis.

A more orthodox interpretation is that Cain's line is the urban, civilization-creating line, you have metallurgy, music, cities, trade, all coming from that line. This is because Cain represented agriculture, whereas Abel represented cattle herding, thus nomadic, not rooted lifestyles.

After Cain killed Abel (e.g. sedentary agriculture replaced nomadism in most places), it was natural for Cain to build a city as he was not nomadic. It was not for "protection" from his fellow man, but merely the continuation of his choice to be a tiller of the soil rather than a wandering nomad. God's demand for Cain to be a "wanderer" in the land of "nod" ("literally 'land of wandering' in Hebrew") is thus the opposite of what Cain did -- he settled down and built a city. This creates a nice picture: Cain choose not to be a wanderer (nomadic cattle herder) but to be a farmer (settle in one place). God told him "You will be a wanderer" but then it says that Cain built a city. So is the message -- those who are rooted in one place on earth are spiritual wanderers, and those who wander are the rooted ones?

Of course everyone is free to read Genesis and get all sorts of meanings out of it, it is ultimately a personal exercise according to your own conscience, but when you say that your reading is the correct one and other people are "mistaken", then you better be able to back it up with some kind of consensus view.

FYI, more modern scholarship has noticed that the seven generations of Cain line up with the 7 "sages" in Sumerian accounts, these were the sages that came from the deep and taught the Sumerians agriculture, metallurgy, etc, and people have been exploring associations between the names of these sages and the names in the line of Cain.

Another interesting area of the study is that the lines of Shem are basically the same names as that of Cain, but Shem has three more figures. That certainly isn't an accident - the documentary hypothesis people say it is the same line, just copied over from different places, but that is an old view and I think a minority one. There are all sorts of discussions about that similarity.

smitty1e 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Astralcodex link has a YouTube URL to a woman purportedly reading the Epic in the original tongue.