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zkmon 5 hours ago

> claiming human authorship for a proof generated entirely by an AI system would misrepresent both the system’s contribution and the nature of genuine human intellectual work.

AI has no self-awareness. It's a tool. When you assemble a furniture using a screw driver, the torque force interacts with the molecular forces inside the metal and miraculously it transfers the force to the screw though a clever geometry design, communicating the force to the screw to turn it in a certain way.

Do you attribute the build to the tool? The "system's contribution" is helped by many other things all the way down to chips, datacenters and power generation. If the authorship requires attributing to a tool, then it should happen all the way down.

raincole 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sorry, OpenAI's take is correct here. If you're not convinced, here is how they prompted LLM: https://cdn.openai.com/pdf/04d1d1e4-bc75-476a-97cf-49055cd98... [0]

A slightly smarter highschooler could write these. I could write these. It's clear as day that the LLM, not the human, did the heavy lift. It'd be ridiculous to give full credit to whoever wrote the prompt.

[0]: Not one of the proofs in the linked article, but from OpenAI too.

ben_w 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> A slightly smarter highschooler could write these. I could write these. It's clear as day that the LLM, not the human, did the heavy lift. It'd be ridiculous to give full credit to whoever wrote the prompt.

I think you're over-estimating what a smarter highschooler could write.

A "finite loopless undirected multigraph" could have been explained to me at that age if we'd taken Discrete rather than Mechanics and Pure (and one module of Stats) in my two A-levels* in maths and further maths; but from what I saw of the Discrete module, neither:

  Every finite loopless multigraph with no bridge possesses a cycle double cover, without additional assumptions such as cubicity, planarity, connectivity, or higher edge-connectivity.
nor:

  repeated-edge closed trails masquerading as cycles
would have been something we'd have learned. But more importantly, we absolutely didn't have a feel for how much effort one needs to put into making sure the proof is right, so if one of us had been hypothetically asked to write a prompt it would've been no more than half that length, and missed most of the bullet points.

* For those not from the UK: A-levels are between secondary school and university, when aged 16-18. Functionally they are university entrance qualifications: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-level_(United_Kingdom)

yaqubroli 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The human provides the intention and the ability to appreciate the output. Tools do “heavy lifting” all the time, but we still primarily credit the humans who use them precisely because they made the choice to use them.

Provability is just going the way of computation. John Napier had to manually compute logarithm tables over decades and was recognised for his work; now that same work could be performed by a 10 year old with a calculator in an evening.

esikich 5 hours ago | parent [-]

What gives the intention and ability to the human?

ipnon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But why can’t we prompt the LLM “just do math research”? This is what I don’t understand.

raincole 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If there aren't thousands of TPUs doing that [0] right now I'd be quite surprised.

[0]: e.g. "go through wikipedia's unsolved math problem list and solve them".

zkmon 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When you use a crane to do the "heavy lifting" for construction work, do you give full credit to the cranes?

raincole 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Read the prompts in the PDF I link and see if your analogy makes sense in this context :)

zkmon 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Prompt quality should not matter. If a high-schooler operates the crane to lift a ton of weight 10 floors high, should the credit entirely go to the crane?

Anon1096 3 hours ago | parent [-]

When I type 56789*23456 into my calculator and get the result I don't claim to have solved the problem, the calculator did it.

mathisfun123 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't disagree with you but there's no need for exaggeration; ain't no high school student writing this:

> In particular, proofs for special graph classes, constructions of cycle covers with some edges covered other than twice, bounded-length or prescribed-cycle variants, reductions to another unproved conjecture, computational verification through any fixed graph size, and candidate counterexamples without a complete nonexistence certificate are insufficient.

which is infact a very important part of the prompt.

don_esteban 3 hours ago | parent [-]

the fact that such things have to be explicitly in the prompt points to the fact that the underlying system is still far from where it needs to be (basically, lacks basic understanding what a proof is)

esikich 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your brain also is physical. Electrochemical gradients flow between physical molecular constructs. Isn't it just chemistry? Do you attribute it to physics or some whole-is-greater-than-the-parts idea?

NitpickLawyer 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A better analogy would be a manufactured object, say 3d printed for simplicity. The 3d printer is given an input, and an object manifests itself after some time. We say that the creator of the object is the person turning on the machine, sending the data, and collecting the object. Not the machine itself.

cure_42 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd say the creator is the one who created the 3d model, not the one who pushed the print button.

dgellow 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would say „I made this gadget with my 3d printer, but the designer is someone else (I found the model online)“. The intent, the drive, the action comes from the human

traes 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"I made this proof myself, but the designer is someone else" is an extremely unconvincing claim to ownership.

dgellow 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Almost as if a proof isn’t the same as a 3d print. It’s just not a good analogy

NitpickLawyer 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

(let's assume that)My 3dprinter is special. It has a bunch of values + an algorithm (i.e. a neural network) that takes input as tokens and outputs a printed object.

ben_w 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Do you attribute the build to the tool? The "system's contribution" is helped by many other things all the way down to chips, datacenters and power generation. If the authorship requires attributing to a tool, then it should happen all the way down.

When the tool is a 3D printer, or any CNC system really, you bet I attribute a build to it.

I could also attribute the operator; there is no contradiction, it's a free choice, just like saying "I am in Berlin" does not contradict "I am in Germany".

naasking 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> AI has no self-awareness

What is your mechanistic model of self awareness that yields this conclusion?

> It's a tool

Does your model suggest that tools can't have self awareness?

Delk 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I honestly don't think a language model is enough for self-awareness, regardless of the exact model of awareness.

A language model (or an image model or whatever) cannot even be sentient, and I think sentience is a prerequisite for awareness.

Even if we express a lot of our subjective experience with words, the language is just a symbolic representation of those experiences. The qualia themselves, even those that are quite abstract, are rooted in our physical presence and evolution.

You can't have an understanding of what hunger or physical pain feel like if you have no need for food or a sensory capacity for feeling pain. You can't understand what loneliness or pride at an achievement mean if you don't have a neural network wired to value social connection or status. We value connection because we're social animals that have needed each other for survival.

Even the more abstract of our subjective experiences are in some way rooted in our physical evolution.

I see no reason to believe that a neural network built entirely based on the symbolic level of language could have the features needed for the subjective experience itself.

AI awareness might actually be more believable if that awareness manifested itself in an entirely different way than in humans. But if we assume awareness because outputs resemble what we consider meaningful as humans, yet the neural network has had no inputs or evolution that could form the actual basis of human-like experience, I think we're seeing something that isn't actually there.

woeirua 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

So… your model is 100% vibes based. Got it.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
perching_aix 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Dunno about the parent commenter, but I personally interpret the concept as having a hidden representation of self that is continually tended to, and influences future choices. This implies statefulness, which models are intentionally not at inference time (*).

(*) Even if we hack around this and just do the usual trick of simply laundering statefulness to a higher level, in this case the context window being fed in, I fail to identify (**) a representation of its own state in these bodies of text that it'd be meticulously maintaining. I further fail to identify how it could be hidden or maintained, considering I control like half of it. The best you could ascribe it is a meticulous maintenance of a persona the user is talking to, but then that doesn't necessarily represent the model's internal state, the same way my own words here aren't doing so either. Difference being, I actually have one (I'm "on-line").

You'll sometimes catch models mixing up who's who and how many who-s there even are for example.

(**) I did wish for something hidden though, so maybe it's just concealed? The same way people can encode a lot more of their emotional and mental state than normal into text if they read and write a lot of it, I'm aware of research that suggested the same for LLMs, albeit I cannot cite it. Maybe those phrasing signatures are just alien to me and will never pop out. Either way, I'd expect researchers to stumble upon this during interpretability studies, and either they haven't, they have but it wasn't popsci adopted, or they're keeping awfully tight lipped about it. If you know of anything like this, your turn now, would be happy to learn.

I do wonder how reasonable it is to expect e.g. a single maintained identity though. Maybe it isn't?

(*) Another way to hack around this of course is to just precompute some internal "self-awareness states" and hop around between them. Probably the closest to what the models are actually "doing".

ben_w 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Before reading, know that I am uncertain in either direction.

> a hidden representation of self that is continually tended to

This sounds like a personality? They act like they have one of those. It may be an illusion, and even if it isn't an illusion it is unlikely to be anything like the source (us), but they act like it.

> I further fail to identify how it could be hidden or maintained, considering I control like half of it.

Indeed you control everything about a local model, and much of the context of even a remote model. But the state of activations and circuits in SotA AI is hidden in similar ways to those of synapses in your head: difficult to decipher even with probes monitoring the signals directly, and often not emitted at the normal output.

> The best you could ascribe it is a meticulous maintenance of a persona the user is talking to, but then that doesn't necessarily represent the model's internal state, the same way my own words here aren't doing so either. Difference being, I actually have one (I'm "on-line").

While we can be confident that LLMs make up personas etc., it is insufficient to go from "that doesn't necessarily represent the model's internal state" to "therefore it doesn't have one".

> You'll sometimes catch models mixing up who's who and how many who-s there even are for example.

I've, unfortunately, also experienced this with humans. Perhaps they were losing their self-awareness at the time? I do wonder if old-age dementia does that by the end, though the person in question didn't ever get diagnosed with that.

> If you know of anything like this, your turn now, would be happy to learn.

Do you mean like these, or something else?

https://researchportal.hkust.edu.hk/en/publications/decoding...

https://aclanthology.org/2026.eacl-long.165/

https://transformer-circuits.pub/2026/emotions/index.html

perching_aix 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> This sounds like a personality?

Not quite what I meant, but it's also not entirely unrelated I guess? Personality to me is like a natural bias. It does also shift over time, and is also an internal bit of state. I guess in some respects it can also be self-referential, like personal convictions.

> Perhaps they were losing their self-awareness at the time?

I do think it is entirely possible for people's self-awareness to shift, yes. Or more precisely, I do model things that way.

> Do you mean like these, or something else?

They're adjacent, but I more meant something like these:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.03768

https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.18512

https://arxiv.org/abs/2605.26537

So basically, steganography. The difference is that these papers investigate from the perspective of separate LLM instances covertly exchanging information between each other. This is in contrast with the scenario I'm laying out, where an LLM's past state is exchanging information with its future state, continuously representing and modulating a concealed internal state of some sort. And then that state just so happening to be some sort of self-referential meta state.

And the best inkling I have towards this is basically: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WP5_XJY_P0Q

But then I don't think there's enough covert channel bandwidth in the agent replies for anything interesting like this.