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| ▲ | seszett 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > sometimes fossil fuels are a good fit There is simply NO safe level of fossil fuel use. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Disagree, it's just that the safe level is around 0.1% of current use (though I don't just mean use of fossil fuels for electricity, I mean *everything*). | |
| ▲ | danw1979 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There’s applications that we still have no alternative for though - e.g. aviation - so we’ll have to accept the burning of hydrocarbons there. Not fossil hydrocarbons forever, of course, but synthetic kerosene might be a thing soon enough. | |
| ▲ | cinntaile 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know what you mean with "no safe level of fossil fuel use". It doesn't mean anything without contextualizing that statement. |
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| ▲ | dudefeliciano 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The point they are making is that climate change will further push these conditions, so are we willing to build more nuclear power plants, knowing that by the time they are ready to go online this problem will be worse? Or better to invest in renewables which can be implemented today and will alleviate this problem? A mix of both with heavy majority of renewables and nuclear/fossil only to guarantee baseloads seems like the best idea to me. | |
| ▲ | paganel 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Everyone is politically motivated on this subject, and that's a good thing, because this is a political decision by default, where the "political" is comprised of is, the voting citizens. We can't let decisions like these be taken by unelected technocrats alone. | | |
| ▲ | gib444 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not filled with joy about my chav ("redneck") neighbours weighing in on nuclear vs solar and climate change and national and international energy markets and power distribution... I don't have a clue either. Don't ask for my vote on how to power a country. Take my taxes and use them to listen to experts | | |
| ▲ | dudefeliciano 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Plot twist, the experts are lobbyists and they convince our politicians to start fracking and massively increase the use of "clean coal" |
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| ▲ | 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >and that's a good thing, because this is a political decision by default, Why is it a good thing that everyone and their brother seeks to apply state violence to micromanage what should be a fairly arcane technical issue? >We can't let decisions like these be taken by unelected technocrats alone. Do you feel the same way about topics where your opinion differs substantially from the local majority? | | |
| ▲ | andor 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Very few things are purely technical decisions. In this case, it’s about centralized vs. distributed electricity generation (or freedom vs. dependence if you want to state it that way). One of these options makes it much easier for the billionaire class to continue extracting money out of the people. Edit: I don’t understand how you get from „political decision“ to „state violence“. Politics are at play at all levels of civilization where actors have different goals, from your dinner table and your company Slack to democratic institutions. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > One of these options makes it much easier for the billionaire class to continue extracting money out of the people. I almost hesitate to ask, do you think that is the centralised or decentralised option? And, more directly, that is a bad theory. The billionaires will make money either way. It doesn't make a lot of difference to them as a class. They'll have an inclination to the cheaper form of energy because more energy -> more economy -> more money for them. | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >In this case, it’s about centralized vs. distributed electricity generation (or freedom vs. dependence if you want to state it that way). The venn diagram between people who act like renewables are "freeing" (which make no mistake, they absolutely could be) and the people who advocate nonstop for government management of how they are deployed is too close to a circle for me to take such commentary seriously. >One of these options makes it much easier for the billionaire class to continue extracting money out of the people. Ah, yes, billionares. Famous for not getting a cut when I buy a plug in solar panel from my preferred e-commerce site or big box store. /s The billionares have their money in everything. They get a cut of everything. You're just changing who gets the cut. And even if no billionaire is getting a cut, a publicly traded/owned investment bank or other corporate interest that would replace them is not really any less evil. >: I don’t understand how you get from „political decision“ to „state violence“. Politics are at play at all levels of civilization where actors have different goals, By not gaslighting myself into thinking politics is anything other than the process of deciding where, when and how state violence is applied. What backs up all those decisions other than credible threat of violence? |
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| ▲ | stavros 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Agreed, whenever I hear someone say "we need more/less nuclear and less/more solar/wind", I hear "let's burn more fossil fuels while we uselessly split hairs". | |
| ▲ | vrganj 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not really opposed to nuclear power politically. I just think it's a non-starter given the much higher cost, complexity of buildout and lack of reliability. | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | In countries with dark winters and without enough hydro power, the only reliable alternative are fossil fuels... | | |
| ▲ | comrade1234 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Iceland has no nuclear power plants. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Iceland is a small area, small population outlier literally sitting on two plates rubbing up against each other and a relative excess of active volcanism and large lava fields. About 85 percent of the total primary energy supply in Iceland is derived from domestically produced renewable energy sources. Use of abundant hydroelectric and geothermal power has made Iceland the world's largest electricity producer per capita.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IcelandWhat works for Iceland works in few other places to the same degree (New Zealand, Yellowstone, places with thin crust and feisty caldera's). | | |
| ▲ | number6 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Germany also has potential for 85% geothermal energy. There are some interesting spots here but it's generally enough through the country to do it everywhere. Munich gets quite a lot of it's energy from geothermal sources |
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| ▲ | deepsummer 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Countries like UK, Ireland, Germany, Danmark, Netherland, Poland also have dark winters. Solar in winter is only about a fifth of production in summer months. Iceland has geothermal, which is amazing, but won't help central Europe. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those places also have a huge wind resource in the form of the North Sea, for Ireland whatever the other bits of that submerged continental shelf are called, and for Poland the Baltic: https://globalwindatlas.info/en/ This is important because wind season anti-correlates with PV season. Plus, it's not like north-south power lines are beyond the wit of mankind. The US western interconnection includes both Canada and Mexico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NERC-map-en.svg | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yet there are whole weeks practically without wind in winter. And most climate models estimate that global warming reduces wind further. Storage in the required dimensions is an unsolved problem. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Yet there are whole weeks practically without wind in winter. And most climate models estimate that global warming reduces wind further. Not for the combination of [continent-wide, offshore, the Atlantic coast]. The Atlantic continental shelf isn't correlated with the Baltic. Offshore Dunkelflaute is much shorter than on-shore. > Storage in the required dimensions is an unsolved problem. Also false. The required quantities even of batteries is comparable to electrification of road transport. Also, independently of batteries, hydro plants come in two flavours that people often mix up: generation, and storage. Of these, only generation requires an associated upstream supply and watershed; storage can be done with a hole in the ground, of which there are plenty, and just the currently and soon-to-be closed coal mines in the EU can be converted to around 13 TWh of pumped storage: https://gfzpublic.gfz.de/rest/items/item_5038282_1/component... And it's not like we can't dig more holes if we wanted to, we dig holes to get out rocks even though rocks are one of the cheapest things you can buy. | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The Atlantic continental shelf isn't correlated with the Baltic. How do you transmit the power? Do the countries on the Atlantic even want wind power, set up the transmission lines, and pay for it? > Offshore Dunkelflaute is much shorter than on-shore. That reduces the storage requirements a bit, but there is not nearly enough offshore. And offshore is expensive. That's why it's getting harder to find investors. > The required quantities even of batteries is comparable to electrification of road transport. That doesn't prove it's possible, but makes it even harder to get the required quantities. > hydro plants come in two flavours that people often mix up: generation, and storage Hydro requires the right geography. Is there any potential for hydro left in central Europe? > EU can be converted to around 13 TWh of pumped storage That would be a good amount of storage. But has this ever been tried? I would guess that's quite dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseK5gp66u8 | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Max comment nesting reached. Instead of going through your response one by one, let me just say one thing: the premise and promise of the whole energy transition are based on studies that completely underestimated the physical and engineering challenges in practice. That's why we are where we are. Energy costs have gone up; CO2 emissions have not. I wouldn't believe any study before it has been implemented at scale, at least in a region or small country. | |
| ▲ | ben_w 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > How do you transmit the power? The usual way. > Do the countries on the Atlantic even want wind power, set up the transmission lines, and pay for it? They can sell the power, you know. This already happens. > That reduces the storage requirements a bit, but there is not nearly enough offshore. It more than covers it. Even a Dunkelflaute period is reduced, not zero, output. Those seas are huge, and the normal wind there is fast; even on a continental-shelf-spanning Dunkelflaute (much rarer than "just Germany and Poland"), the capacity in those waters *even with that reduction* is more than EU demand just by itself, which in practice means "not building as much as possible". > And offshore is expensive. That's why it's getting harder to find investors. Compared to onshore wind. But even offshore wind is cheaper than new-build nuclear, coal, and has strong overlap with new CCGT. Even then, it's not hard to find investors: the US went as far as banning it because the investors were actually happy to invest. The limitation on investors right now is that we're transitioning faster than any previous energy transition before, while also having other things to also invest in. It's like how big tech in the US is running out of people to get money from to spend on data centres, the limit isn't actually building them, it's how fast they're getting built when your answer to "how many would you like to order?" is "yes". > That doesn't prove it's possible, but makes it even harder to get the required quantities. The fact that EVs are for sale, however, does. > Hydro requires the right geography. Is there any potential for hydro left in central Europe? I thought you might say something like that, *which is why I literally wrote what I wrote*: people often mix up: generation, and storage. Of these, only generation requires an associated upstream supply and watershed; storage can be done with a hole in the ground, of which there are plenty
And then linked you to a document, with a quote from that document, about using coal mines. The document you replied to with doubts, supports the conclusion you've just denied.Also, I already saw all of Tom Scott's videos when they were new. As per the document: Finally, the realisable potential includes projects that are not only technically and economically feasible but also aligned with regulatory, environmental, social and implementation timelines, facilitating their implementation within short to medium time frame.
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| ▲ | frm88 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Storage in the required dimensions is an unsolved problem. No, it's not. Decommissioned nuclear plant infrastructure used as massive battery storage. https://gesi-deutschland.de/en/gesi-project-presented-in-gro... | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | 870 MWh? It would take about 500 of them to make it through a 1-2 week dunkelflaute. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why do you think that's a criticism? The following table shows that in total 2264 installations have been identified in the EU ETS to be power plants, which have reported emissions in at least one year since 2005. The fuel of 1440 power plants have been identified. Of this there are 124 lignite power plants, 284 hard coal power plants and 2 power plants using blast furnace gas. There are 57 power plants using oil products. The majority of the plants uses natural gas (858 plants). About 824 plants have not been matched to a fuel yet.
- page 8, https://www.eionet.europa.eu/etcs/etc-cme/products/etc-cme-r... |
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| ▲ | oblio 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wind + storage, geothermal. | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Storage of energy in the dimensions required for weeks with almost no wind is an unsolved problem. Right now, we can't store enough to make it through a single night without using fossil fuels. Most countries don't even have the capacity to store the energy for a single hour. | | |
| ▲ | RandomLensman 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As we can store fossil fuels for weeks of demand, we can store the required energy in chemical form, no? Germany has huge natural gas storage, for ezample. | | | |
| ▲ | emsign 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Geothermal and storage is worth investing in, investing in nuclear is not. NPPs are simply too expensive and you won't find investors unless you heavily subsidize it with tax money. Only compnies willing to invest in NPPs are those with virtually free money: the handful of AI big tech giants. | | |
| ▲ | deepsummer 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | How can you be sure of that before even having a practical and proven solution for the required scale of storage? | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | We have proven solutions. We're building the factories to make them as fast as we can find investors with money to spend on them, because they're already cheaper than fossil fuels which are themselves cheaper than nuclear. |
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| ▲ | ThePowerOfFuet 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >sometimes fossil fuels are a good fit. Oh come on. | |
| ▲ | Krasnol 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > People arguing for one alternative over the other are usually politically motivated. If you can spend a Dollar only once, you might end up with renewables. People can be economically motivated too. No reason to draw politics in an already heated discussion. | | |
| ▲ | cinntaile 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > It depends on what you are optimizing for and what is geographically, (geo)politically and economically possible. I mentioned all of this in my message. What was unclear about it or did you perhaps not read past the first sentence? |
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