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klodolph 2 hours ago

A while ago I was thinking, “Gee, AI is so complicated, how can I keep up with the landscape?”

After reading these articles go by so often, it feels like what I actually can’t keep up with is the bond market. To paraphrase Trotsky, you may not be interested in the bond market, but the bond market is interested in you. I want to be able to read the signals at the bottom of this article, and divine some kind of prediction that can guide me… I don’t know, to choose whether I should buy a house or change the investment strategy in my retirement fund or something. But I’m just seeing all these signals go by, waiting for the story to be written, which only happens when the dust settles.

I guess I’ll go back to not understanding AI, instead of not understanding the bond market.

eru an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As a retail investor, you should buy an index fund and then forget about it.

By the time you have read this article, the professionals and their computers will have digested that material a thousand times over and have priced it in.

To be more precise: buy the lowest cost most diversified index fund you can buy and then hold it. If you want to spend some smarts to get a better return: look at how to minimise taxes and fees.

dgellow 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> By the time you have read this article, the professionals and their computers will have digested that material a thousand times over and have priced it in.

I think you overestimate traders. What we call smart money is very often really, really dumb from a macro perspective. Professional traders believe hype and follow trends. There is still at least 2 thesis playing out at the moment for the AI trade, and you don’t need to be a professional trader to take part: one is the AI impact on saas (the market has been very bearish on SaaS companies, and still hasn’t corrected meaningfully), and the ai infrastructure (hardware companies + hyperscalers)

csomar 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wonder with the spacex thing if this should be revised. “Smart money” have figured out what you are doing and they are at the gates.

worik 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> As a retail investor, you should buy an index fund and then forget about it.

That definitely was true.

I am unsure it is still true. Index funds have taken so much of the trade volume the are becoming momentum strategies

So long as you are happy following the market wherever it goes, and if the recent past is a guide then up is the direction, then yes.

But given the nepotism and corruption in the highest reaches of USAnian society (e.g. Trump's crypto currency scams and the blatant inside dealing and rule ignoring of the Space X float) the future looks much less certain than the past

collabs 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

The future always has risks but the question is that does an option better than index funds exist?

dgellow 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Gee, AI is so complicated, how can I keep up with the landscape?

The interesting thing is: you do not need to keep up. It’s actually way easier and cheaper to wait a bit for the chaos to stabilize, then learn to use the tools. You don’t need to have been someone who experienced the whole evolution, non stop at the edge. It’s ok to let the enthusiasts discover how things work and eventually learn from them. Just like any other technology. The whole „you will be left behind“ is nonsense. If AI is the future, then it will here to stay and you can let others map the domain first

mrloopex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don’t forget there is a constant pressure for everyone to have an opinion on how this is going to end while hoping it ends tomorrow so they can be vindicated. The dotcom bust took a decade to grow and collapse. I think it is too early to make predictions with AI. I mean the sentiment here is either it will dry up the world and kill us all or transcend humanity, there’s no gray area. I don’t want to fall into the emotional sieve that seems to drive everything.

mapping365 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's the financial stakes here. That's why it's all or nothing. You're spending on a level that is only justified by the bonafide machine god being ushered into existence, not productivity or coding tools (and on relatively short time horizon). So if this doesn't change the near term trajectory of humanity to a parabolic move upward there is going to be a lot of economic pain. It's not just the spending, it's that the expectations for the returns to justify them are in a relatively short period of time.

danans an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> if this doesn't change the near term trajectory of humanity to a parabolic move upward there is going to be a lot of economic pain

"trajectory of humanity to a parabolic move upward" is poorly defined here. Whether we are headed to a machine god ruled scenario or "just" incredibly powerful productivity tools, there will be a lot of economic pain for some (most) and a lot of economic gain for a few.

I've yet to a see an LLM/agent-based business plan in where scaling with an order fewer workers than before LLMs is not a central part of the value proposition.

byzantinegene an hour ago | parent [-]

such a business plan has not yet created economic value, being able to roll out features at rocket speed is not a huge determinant of a startup's success.

klodolph 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What’s your reasoning for saying that the spending level requires that level of justification?

mapping365 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think these large numbers are casually thrown about, but the real meaning is mind boggling. 1 trillion dollars is the entire US defense budget - aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, health care, salaries, stealth fighters ect. The hidden AI debt alone is more than that https://asia.nikkei.com/business/technology/five-us-tech-gia... just for five tech giants (not to mention all the other smaller players like neoclouds)

awongh 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Most people mean this to say that 1 trillion is a lot of money, but it still comes back to what you believe AI is- in hindsight, does 1 trillion dollars to build the internet sound like a lot or a little? (That is, spending 1 year of USA's defense budget to get the entire internet)

It comes back to your perception of what AI is because to people who say AI is glorified auto-complete won't believe that the money is worth it.

The AGI-pilled true believers who say it will end all money and result in a post-scarcity world believe literally any amount is justifiable.

Most people, me included, land somewhere in the middle- it seems like AI is a humanity-level sea change in technology and how computers work and serve us. It seems plausible that a few trillion is a reasonable amount.

matwood an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

1T is big in the absolute sense, but that's simply the scale these big tech companies operate at. Go back to 2024 or 2025 and you'll see as a group they are making a net income of $400B+. The scale at which these companies do anything is just staggering.

anal_reactor 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good that you made the comparison with defense budget because it's becoming evident that AI is the new "nuclear bomb". First, if you have more advanced AI than your opponent, you just hack them and the war is over before it began. I'm simplifying obviously, but the point that AI is essential to modern warfare stands. Second, even during peacetime, you can use AI to directly influence what people think, what they do, etc. in the most literal sense of this expression. We already know that people outsource thinking, relationships, and cultural expression to LLMs, and even if that wasn't the case, you can use AI to deliver to each single person hand-crafted propaganda, not to mention the previously unimaginable opportunities to spy on people.

It would be strange if the race to wield this power wouldn't result in AI getting pumped to the moon, way beyond anything that seems reasonable.

mapping365 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

That could all be true, but the problem is however powerful it is, it still needs to make money for the people who invested in it who are expecting a return. The stock valuations, the bonds yields - they don't care about the power of a nuclear bomb. They want to get paid. They expect to get paid. And if they don't get what they are expecting, there will be hell to pay in the economy. There's a probably a good reason the power of nuclear weapons isn't an ETF I could buy into.

refurb an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

By that measure it doesn’t sound like that much.

You’re talking about about an amount that is a 13% of the total US government spending, of which is 20% of the entire US GDP.

I’m not saying it’s insignificant but it’s only a few percent of the US GDP and it represents spending over several years.

mapping365 an hour ago | parent [-]

I mean that's so far, it continues to grow exponentially larger with each quarter. The debt issuance for the first half looks to be crowding out US treasuries in the bond market - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2026-07-23/ai-deb... - that's an extremely large amount of debt. And it's still getting larger and larger each quarter.

jaggederest 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah this is going to be north of 10 trillion by the end, I would wild-ass-guess. Inflation adjusted it's larger than the manhattan project, apollo program, works progress administration, hell, it's on par with the cold war era military buildout, or a baby world war.

refurb 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I would question the idea that highly industry consolidated debt is competing with risk free debt issued by the US government. Those are two very different products.

And while the quarter by quarter growth may seem astonishing it very different saying “debt levels today are alarming” versus “if this trend continues debt levels will be alarming”

mapping365 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

So the disclosed balance sheet debt is 1.35 trillion and then the off-balance sheet debt is 1.65 trillion for a total of 3 trillion in AI debt for the 5 tech giants so far. It's multiplying every quarter and they've set investors expectations to be that this is never ending basically. But the tech giants aren't the only people spending themselves into massive debt, think of the CoreWeaves and the Nebius and the hundreds of other smaller companies. And the expectation is that there will be a near term return on all this with a healthy profit. Those five tech giants are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the amount of debt.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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belZaah 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What’s weird is how emotional people get on this. I told publicly (because I was asked, not out of an obligation to have an opinion), that the prices we pay for LLMs are likely to go up because that’s what happens when the ratio of operational assets to foreign capital drops due to the capital having been turned into heat rather than operational assets. The grief I got from people, dear Lord…

klodolph 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think that opinion is as reasonable as any. I feel compelled to argue against it (I even thought out the arguments in my head!) but my compulsion to have an opinion on HN is a disease, and you made a point of saying that you gave the opinion because asked.

grey-area an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel obliged to step in here to say there is a grey area where these are useful tools for some applications but not on the path to AGI.

Unfortunately the hype machine has far outstripped their capabilities so far, and the amount of money spent doesn’t look like being recouped, so somebody is going to lose money, as people lost money on the overpriced spacex ipo (overpriced because of AI).

riffraff 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The dotcom bust took a decade to grow and collapse

I'm inclined to think the collapse has already started but nobody wants to see it yet.

In the last few weeks SP500 is down, kospi is down, nikkei is down, US inflation is still high and growth is softer than expected. Hyper inflated stocks (Tesla, Nvidia, SpaceX) are deflating. US bonds are at a 20 year high.

Interesting times ahead.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> there is a constant pressure for everyone to have an opinion on how this is going to end while hoping it ends tomorrow so they can be vindicated

In what bubble does this pressure exist?

vanagandr an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do you stay out of it all, if at all?

4fggfd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

the core issue is that you can't simply will into a existence a thing that is never going to be.

Im very convinced there's a cult-like level of psychosis in silicon valley (except in Apple) where LLM's must begin displacing labour. It simply is not happening. And the longer this continues, the crazier and unhinged they will get.

rapind an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I was able to create a custom index based on the top 500 that I stripped the big AI stocks from (shovels too). Then I added decent chunks of international, small cap, and treasury ETFs to it.

I have no illusions that I can time a bubble, but I'm hopeful I'm at least partially shielded, and most importantly I feel better about ignoring wall street again.

eru an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Instead of starting with the top 500 American stocks, and then adding international and small caps, you can start with a global all-market stock index--and then remove AI from that.

rapind 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah I couldn't figure that out with Questrade (Canada). It's a pretty new feature, but I think it's great, so I hope they expand their baseline indexes.

I was considering writing a tool that simply follows any index you choose with a .toml of simple config options, like which stocks to exclude, potential fixed locks for specific stocks (or maybe upper and lower percentage of portfolio settings), a hard per stock cap (say AAPL at 3%), and drift threshold. Something you just run once a day and it spits out your buy / sell orders. Seems like this is something brokerages are already offering in some variation though, and I'm not sure what, if any, API access looks like, or export / import options.

eru 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm in Singapore. My money is in VWRA (without bothering to remove AI companies).

Your idea for the tool sounds interesting. I suspect even just copy-and-pasting the paragraph you wrote here into your favourite AI programming agent would get you pretty close to a prototype you can play around with. At least in terms of 'spit out buy / sell orders' and leaving out the API integration.

rapind 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes, it's a very simple concept IMO. Without API access or at least CSV import / export integration w/ a brokerage for automation I don't think I'd use it. I could have an agent use the Web UI on my behalf, but honestly, that feels like lighting tokens / gas on fire.

reddalo an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>I can time a bubble

What do you mean? Selling everything before this bubble pops?

eru an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Oh, if you could time a bubble, you wouldn't just sell everything: you'd sell more than everything. Ie you'd sell short.

bawolff an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Talk about taking a quote out of context...