> This part is still true, a meaningful amount of load is always required somewhere on the grid.

> The gap in understanding comes with the second factor: belief that it is inherently more efficient to match this load with big thermal generation.

> This comes from a historical contingency, where large stable loads matched very well with traditional coal-fired and nuclear power plants. These burn coal (or fission) to heat water, creating steam that then drives a turbine to generate electricity.

> In both cases, getting the water up to temperature can take hours, and these plants do not handle fluctuations in demand well. They are much more efficient running steadily at a given rate. But, when operated at that steady rate, these large plants were historically some of the most cost effective available.

> As a result, in most places a layered system of generators was built with large, slow-but-efficient coal and nuclear plants designed to serve the ‘baseload’ that would always be required. On top of this, faster-but-more-expensive gas, oil, and hydroelectric generators were layered.

This model doesn't make sense. Suppose you have an existing setup with some coal plants and some oil plants. The coal plants like to stay on; the oil plants are more indifferent.

There's a baseline load reflecting the amount of power demanded at almost all times of the day or night in whatever region contains this setup.

Now we add some more coal plants. They like to stay on. They hate turning off.

What will happen is that the local baseline load rises to accommodate the greater supply of power. Also, the price of electricity will go down.

It just isn't the case that the amount of power people consume within any given region is independent of the power supply to that region! The baseload is set by the amount of power being delivered; it's logically incoherent to try to determine what level of inflexible power generation will meet "the baseload". Almost any level will.

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infamia a day ago | parent | next [-]

> it's logically incoherent to try to determine what level of inflexible power generation will meet "the baseload".

Lots of folks don't know that coal and gas fired plants are able to turn down their power generation more than 90% (i.e., "ten to one turn down"). It's definitely true that cold restarts take a while. However, they often rather quickly and dramatically change their power output profile while running.

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bluGill a day ago | parent [-]

That depends on the design. Gas fired plants typically can turn down that much. However many coal plants cannot. The older the design the less likely it can turn down far.

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infamia a day ago | parent [-]

> That depends on the design. ... The older the design the less likely it can turn down far.

I don't doubt there's a small number of plants that can't do 10-1. That said, transmitters are intended to be replaced and upgraded regularly since they have a finite lifespan (they're cheap anyhow). 10-1 has been around for 35+ years now and you're really lucky to get 20 years out of a transmitter.

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bluGill a day ago | parent [-]

I don't know what you mean by transmitter.

I know of one factory that has their own coal power plant. The boiler is from the 1880s, the generator installed in the 1920s. It is horribly inefficient by any reasonable standard and takes hours to turn on. However because they keep it operational the power company gives them a massive discount on electric. About ever 5 years there is a major event and the power company has them turn it on for a few days and they power the entire town.

	▲	infamia 8 hours ago \| parent [-]
		That's a really cool story! I live near a couple of industrial sites like that which have a power plant on site, that were shut down quite a long time ago due to environmental concerns they don't burn cleanly at all as you said! A transmitter is a sensor in a power plant that very precisely measures the air flow within the combustion chamber, so the fuel burns as clean/efficiently as possible. Relatively new transmitters can read with more precision, so you can dial down the airflow/fuel and the corresponding power output.

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bluGill a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> What will happen is that the local baseline load rises to accommodate the greater supply of power

Maybe. Electric companies used to have policies that encouraged that. Most people are asleep between midnight and 6am, so if you used a lot of electric at that time they would give you a large discount on electric costs. However most people would not get up at 3am to take shower even if it would save $20/month (must be a really high flow shower to save that much). However those policies have changed over time as now the electric company is going to give discounts if you can use power when the sun is bright or the wind blowing (depending on where they get their power).

	▲	thaumasiotes 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It will always happen. The baseload doesn't need to be composed of residential buildings. If there's a big glut of power between midnight and 6, and the local community doesn't want it, businesses will appear that consume power between midnight and 6.