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docheinestages 7 hours ago

Given the frontier-level capabilities of Kimi K3, I'm wondering if it's possible to extract the core capabilities (fundamental reasoning and tool calling) of the model into a smaller one that consumer devices could run? Not sure exactly how, but either by heavy distillation or some other surgical method since Kimi has a Mixture of Experts architecture.

I think it's very valuable to have a smaller model that doesn't have any domain knowledge or facts built into its weights, but given the right context, could accurately reason about what to do and use the right tools.

I'm aware of colibri [1], but so far I've only seen extremely slow performance.

[1] https://github.com/JustVugg/colibri

snemvalts 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"I'd like a car that goes 300mph and gets 100mpg while doing it. I'm aware of a car that gets 100mpg but it is extremely slow."

You are describing fundamental tradeoffs. Getting more performance relative to model size and training token amount is what all of the labs are solving.

docheinestages 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Labs are focusing on creating models, small or large, that perform well on various benchmarks, including general knowledge, domain-specific expertise, and agentic capabilities.

Asking for such a model while wanting to be small and fast would align with what you're describing, which I believe is different from what I'm pointing to.

The model I'm describing sacrifices domain knowledge and expertise for agentic reasoning and tool-calling capabilities at a reasonable speed.

Think of Cactus Compute's Needle [1].

[1] https://cactuscompute.com/blog/needle

lossolo 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

You can't "sacrifice domain knowledge" because it's part of latent space reasoning. Connections are between concepts, and if you want to remove these concepts, you also remove connections, which means removing reasoning capacity of these models. Some reasoning patterns get established on reasoning in one domain and, based on similarity, get transferred to another domain inside the weights. These are not brains, they don't work like brains, and it seems you think about them as brains.

leobg 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why not generate an artificial dataset using commercial APIs and then finetune a small model on this data?

I’ve had success adapting even a 7B model for single-domain tasks that way, including reasoning and tool calling.

You can use an open model. The point is just to outsource the inference, so you don’t have to deal with running the larger model yourself.

docheinestages 6 hours ago | parent [-]

This is probably one of the ways to achieve this. I see a plethora of such fine-tunes on HuggingFace [1], but they're either not much different than the base model or they're outright benchmaxxing.

[1] https://huggingface.co/models

clbrmbr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There’s another way besides distillation that’s way cheaper: You can have the big model build prescriptive skills that the small model follows.

Take the “train” portion of tasks on some benchmark, have K3 complete it, and then output detailed descriptions of tools used and why, then run the validation tasks with some small model that has access to the skills.

trollbridge an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes. Using a harness with a strong model to create lots of utilities and tools for yourself is effectively the same thing.

naveen99 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Isn’t that distillation ?

mrfox321 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No. Distillation trains on a teach model's logits or output tokens.