| ▲ | petcat 3 hours ago |
| This is not "open source" AI. Photoshop source code + OSI license = open source Photoshop binary = open weight Photoshop SAAS web app = closed model like GPT, Opus/Fable etc. There is nothing "open source" about the Chinese models in question. All they're doing is allowing you to run their binary yourself instead of through their API. If you want actual open source then you would need to look at like OLMo 3 https://allenai.org/ |
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| ▲ | thoughtpeddler 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's true that there isn't currently a single Chinese model family that matches the full OLMo/Nemotron end-to-end 'cookbook' one could rightly call "open-source" (i.e. a full manual on how to reproduce your own foundation model by including the models, data, checkpoints, evals, and code for base/thinking/instruct/RLVR)... But! the Chinese ecosystem does have most of those components, just that they're split across separate projects: MAP-Neo or YuLan-Mini for transparent pretraining, plus DAPO/verl or Open-Reasoner-Zero for transparent reasoning RL. My bet is it's just a matter of time until there is a Chinese equivalent to OLMo. It won't just be China either - from the public sector across the globe there are efforts ranging from Apertus in Switzerland to LLM-jp-4 in Japan, and more. They're not OLMo-level but I'm sure by 2027 you'll see fully open-source 'cookbooks' help an enterprising individual reproduce frontier models of at least a 2023-2024 vintage. |
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| ▲ | SwellJoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Open Source AI is challenging. Even tiny models require tremendous resources to produce, so all the things we know about "open source" for software, like a random person in Nebraska can produce a critical piece of the world's infrastructure in their spare time, don't apply. Actually open source AI is more like scientific research. It needs public funding and reputable institutions as stewards of that funding. I'm hopeful Allen AI is able to do the things, but I'm not sure the US is moving in the direction it needs to be to get to the point where AI in the public interest is something we invest in. But, also Photoshop is not at all comparable to open weight models. I can't legally give you a copy of Photoshop, but I can give you a copy of GLM 5.2. There are free proprietary applications out there that fit the bill, Photoshop isn't one of them. |
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| ▲ | parl_match 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Open Source AI is challenging. Even tiny models require tremendous resources to produce, so all the things we know about "open source" for software, like a random person in Nebraska can produce a critical piece of the world's infrastructure in their spare time, don't apply. No, but a small university team with dark time on the state school system's cluster can build a basic, functional LLM. It will be a few years (or more) until true "open source" LLMs are available and high quality, for sure. But it's not as impenetrable as it seems, IMO. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe an hour ago | parent [-] | | "No, but a small university team with dark time on the state school system's cluster can build a basic, functional LLM." Hey, remember when we were just talking about how it "needs public funding and reputable institutions as stewards of that funding"? (Hint: A state school system is a reputable institution running on public funding.) | | |
| ▲ | parl_match 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I have nothing to say back other than: That's a very snarky and unnecessarily hostile tone to take with someone who is agreeing with you. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I took "No, but" as a disagreement. You're right I was unnecessarily snarky about it. |
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| ▲ | petcat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | OK so replace the Photoshop example with a compiled GIMP or shareware binary. It doesn't change the fact that it is not open source. The free software community complains all the time about binary blobs that are otherwise legal to freely distribute. Like firmwares. But somehow this is all overlooked with these "open weight" models. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not at all disagreeing with you about calling these models "open source". They mostly aren't and we should stop conflating the two things. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think using the term "open" at all in relation to these models is a misnomer. Much in the same way we've spent a lot of time and effort distinguishing "open source" from "source available" Perhaps instead of "Open weight model" it should be "Weights available model" | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Definitely, but there's also a distinction between "weights available" and "you can do stuff with those weights". There are models you can download but the license prohibits redistribution, fine-tuning, etc. The earlier Gemma models had license encumbrances, for instance, that Gemma 4 do not. |
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| ▲ | elpocko 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree with you in general, it's not "Open Source". But in many cases you're allowed to fork them, and create and distribute derivative works (finetunes) from open models, and the training and inference code is also permissively licensed. That's not shareware. And working with the binary weights of a huge pretained model is much easier and cheaper than doing it based on the entirety of its humongous source datasets. | |
| ▲ | DonHopkins 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lord forbid open source models have as horrible a user interface as GIMP! |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Open Source AI is challenging. Even tiny models require tremendous resources to produce, so all the things we know about "open source" for software Compiling/creating the Linux kernel or Chromium is no child's dance either, doesn't make them more/less FOSS than other things. Open Source AI gets its name from the license, not how easy/difficult it is to run/produce yourself. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Compiling/creating the Linux kernel or Chromium is no child's dance either" I can compile the Linux kernel on a modest 15 year old laptop. Sure, it took 35 years and thousands of people to build it into what it is today, but anyone with pretty much any computer can meaningfully participate in Linux kernel development, and many Linux contributors have done so using modest hardware. The same is not true of AI. And, the Linux kernel is the biggest open source project, but plenty of small ones with one or two developers are in use on millions of systems. I have pretty big hardware for local AI, more than most people have (a Strix Halo and a couple of 32GB GPUs in my desktop), but I can barely train anything useful locally; I can do QLoRAs for small models, or LoRAs for very small models, that's about the extent of it. I would need to rent big GPUs to do anything more than an experiment. That's not comparable. |
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| ▲ | antonvs 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > But, also Photoshop is not at all comparable to open weight models. I can't legally give you a copy of Photoshop Please tell me this level of obtuseness is deliberate. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know what you mean, so, if I am obtuse it is from a genuine lack of understanding. What is obtuse about that statement? |
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| ▲ | Groxx 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Especially since some of the arguments in the article seem to hinge on "just fix the training!", yeah, I think this is a completely fair call-out. Open weights can sometimes get additional training, but you can't remove existing training, so there kinda isn't a fair claim to "just train it to be [nationality]". That would need "real" open source so you can train a realistically-equivalent model from the ground up. |
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| ▲ | gorgoiler 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I sort of agree with your analogy but in another sense, think of Firefox. Could I have made it myself? No! Am I grateful that I can have the output of Mozilla’s internal efforts — the browser source code — so that I can at least tweak it and rebuild it myself, and even ship the results myself? Yes! A open weight model is both an incomprehensible binary blob like Photoshop, but also patchable and adjustable piece of source code, like Firefox. |
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| ▲ | anon373839 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Chinese models are open-source for purposes of inference: you know exactly what the model architecture is and the code to run it is released under an open source license. The “binary blob” is a useful artifact that has many techniques available to use in the creation of future binary blobs. And it is fixed and reliable. Contrast this with crap like Claude, where you have no idea how many/what size/shape models you are interacting with. They can silently inject outputs from other systems, apply steering vectors to sabotage a particular user’s work, etc. I agree that 100% free-range organic open source models are lovely, but they also are unlikely ever to attain parity with the frontier because the training data sources are open and expose them to legal liability that closed model providers can thwart. |
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| ▲ | 40four 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is a great distinction that I don’t think is getting talked about enough. “Open source” is probably the wrong term to use. Open “weights”, sure. If your only concern is how good is it at coding, then I don’t have an issue with using the Chinese models. Especially if you want to run it locally, they are kind of the only choice. For any other use than coding, it’s going to have to be a hard pass from me. |
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| ▲ | TurdF3rguson 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well I don't see how it even could be open source, since the source is distilling closed weights models, lol. Also, who cares about having the source? Are you going to tweak it + spend a billion dollars training to get slightly different weights? Who would do that? |
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| ▲ | antonvs 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It’s a good analogy. One difference is that it would be much more difficult to “fine tune” Photoshop, so there’s a sense in which free weights are more useful than a free binary. |