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doodlesdev 2 days ago

> You don’t. You don’t store anything at all.

Yes, you do.

Whenever a website offers to create a passkey, it could end up in any of these:

- Samsung's Password Manager (if using a Samsung phone)

- Apple's Keychain (if using an iPhone)

- Google Password Manager

- Your operating system's keychain

- A bespoke password manager (e.g., Bitwarden or LastPass)

- Your hardware key

Most users do not have a security key fob. Instead, the proposal being mostly pushed is the idea that users can store keys on their own smartphones, making use of the modern TPM and chip security. Most of the discussion here revolves around that idea: "What if I lose my phone? What if I switch phones?" and that's why the problems seem so obvious to you.

I absolutely agree the best solution is to use hardware keys, but I'll admit it's cumbersome if I need them for hundreds of accounts (which I do have), having to register both for every website and praying that I never lose both at the same time in the case there's no viable recovery flow for some of the accounts. Also, most of these hardware keys are limited to 25 or 100 resident keys, which again makes them unable to substitute passwords. Observe the usage of the term resident keys: passkeys do rely on the private key being stored on the hardware key, as that allows discovery.

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ivlad 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I was talking about the non-resident FIDO keys. “Passkey” term is meaningless unfortunately because FIDO Alliance did not define it initially, it was a marketing term invented by Apple and then re-introduced (or shoved down the throat) by the FIDO alliance.

In non-resident keys scenario you don’t store anything and from what I see there is no security downside of using non-resident keys.

Loosing both (or multiple) security keys is like loosing all your car or home keys. Very inconvenient, agreed.

Anyway, I think we can agree that FIDO authentication protocol implementation is a mess. Apple and Google made it messy because they wanted to lock down users to their platforms and then password managers followed. As a result, the current implementation is not more secure than “login with Apple” or “login with Google”.

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doodlesdev a day ago | parent [-]

I agree!

Indeed, the only advantage to Resident Keys (i.e., Passkeys) is the discoverabillity of them, so you can login without even using a username. It's a shame all of the terminology around WebAuthn/FIDO2 and Passkeys is so loose and badly defined.

Honestly, I think OAuth logins are still an ok option for the average user, unfortunately, as I would never recommend someone I love to use Passkeys and put them through the burden of having to understand and deal with all of this mess.

	▲	ivlad 21 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I have deployed FIDO authenticators at a ~2000 employees organization as the second factor. It was great for a while - when early versions of macOS and iOS respected the “platform” claim and created non-exportable private keys backed by Secure Enclave. Windows was never a problem, keys were created in TPM. We mandated 2 FIDO credentials - typically the laptop and either a phone or Yubikey (or both). People were encouraged to use the later but as soon as the keys were not exportable, phones were acceptable. Then, Chrome got an update and started hijacking the enrolment process from the operating system and created keys synced to Google Account. This resulted worse UX because authentication now required pulling the Android phone (for those unlucky ones who have it) and confirming the login there instead of doing it right on the computer, uninterrupted. Then, Apple followed with cloud-only key pairs and then so did the password managers (including Bitwarden Enterprise we were using) and everything become a mess. The only solution would be to use the key attestation and to only allow specific security keys. Both Chrome and Apple have config knobs to simplify enterprise attestation (a strong assurance, which FIDO authenticator has been used), but neither Windows nor macOS support key attestation for hardware-backed keys (and macOS ignores “platform” claim altogether). It sucks.

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zdp7 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I have to think people aren't doing any research. Both Android and Apple sync your passkeys to your account. You can toss all your devices in a wood chipper, buy a replacement and still have access to all your passkeys.

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dotancohen 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So the use of Passkeys is contingent on allowing a major tech firm to spy on you?

I actually do have a Google account, but do not link my (Android) phone to it. I don't have WhatsApp or any other spyware on the device. I do use Telegram, Ankidroid, and a few other apps that I trust. I'm not a fanatic, but I won't enable and abet anybody to follow me around and report all that I do. How my position is considered an extreme position today eludes me, and frightens me as well.

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doodlesdev a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, they do. But what if you want to move from Android to iPhone or vice versa? That's the big problem regarding these keychains/password managers. Some of them didn't even allow you to export your Passkeys until a few months ago, meaning you were literally locked into their platform.

Remember that your average user has no idea what a passkey is, doesn't remember half of their passwords and has no idea what a password manager is.

	▲	zdp7 a day ago \| parent [-]
		If you want to change it maybe tough. It doesn't have to be. Bitwarden has an open source self hosted option(you can also use their service), that can be set as provider in Android and Windows 11. KeepassXC is an option everything is in your kdbx file. Passkeys are so much more convenient and secure. If you do get stuck having to migrate, you can use your password (I would actually prefer just using multiple passkeys.) You don't need to do them all at once. Your average user is probably using whatever their device offers or nothing at all. I'd argue anyone that is tech savvy shouldn't be using either Google or Apple. If your account is disabled, you probably just lost anyway to retrieve your account unless you use a separate email address. I recently discovered cross device auth when a device I had a passkey was able to open my account on my pc that didn't have a passkey. TLDR ther are simple solutions that solve the 'lock in' issue.