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petcat 3 hours ago

> A great achievement of European science and technology

It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. Additionally, a huge portion of the photolithography research is directly developed (and owned) by US companies and research organizations such as IBM, Albany NanoTech, and SEMATECH.

There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Because it's American technology.

But Europe certainly plays a huge role in it.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-n...

https://research.ibm.com/blog/euv-center-albany-nstc

https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-...

https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-researc...

actuallyship an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands.

This is a wildly ignorant comment. The R&D lab in NY State if anything is an effort to copy IMEC, the world's leading research organization when it comes to semiconductor R&D. They essentially set and define the roadmap for node advancements and then the industry follows by actually implementing their innovations at scale in their fabs. I guess they are technically not in the Netherlands, being located about 50 miles south of the Dutch border in Belgium. And they have in fact have an EXE system of their own, and have had access to ASML's high-na tools since before they were even commercially available

Lucasoato 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe.

Why is the Netherlands government even allowing this?

grumbelbart2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The supply chain both in parts for their machines, but also in terms of research and technology for new machines is very deep and very international. If the US states that a technology can only be used by ASML if they keep R&D in the US, then there is no easy alternative for ASML.

That is true not only for ASML, but for the semiconductor industry in general. The number of smaller, specialized companies for certain tools, chemicals and software is staggering. And they sit all over the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan and Korea.

arjie 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The entire multinational effort is in US-Europe-E.Asian countries which are a coordinated allied bloc. The Netherlands allows it because they are entirely aligned.

Strong mutual defense agreements cover four out of the five crucial countries here (NATO, Anpo, MDT US/ROK) and the last (Taiwan) has arms sales assurances.

It’s not like these are strongly opposed nations or anything. Part of the same fleet in some sense.

Zigurd 2 hours ago | parent [-]

2023 called...

shrubble 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The EUV lithography process and other pieces that comprise what ASML sells was developed with US government funding, and it remains encumbered by that. The US government thus has veto power over the tech, and thus over ASML.

vlovich123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because ASML acquired the US company that created this tech and the agreement for allowing Netherlands to do so was that the tech and know how remain in the US.

saidnooneever 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

if they dont allow it ASML will move away and they have nothing.

saberience an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The most absurdly biased and inaccurate take on ASML I've ever seen, congrats.

If the machines are so easy to build and integrate, why isn't it happening in America?

llm_nerd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013.

Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actually needed.

Oh and ASML bought Cymer because Gigaphoton (another company at basically the same stage of development as Cymer), being a Japanese company, objected to foreign control. Though if ASML knew the protectionist, insular direction the US was going to go they probably would rethink their past decisions.

So this retconning that Cymer is really the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff.

And for that matter, it is amazing how so often we hear about "American" tech that is actually overwhelmingly combining acquisitions and manpower from abroad. Like is an iPhone an "American" creation? LOL, no.

bijowo1676 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

isnt DUV and EUV technologies discovered and developed by US national labs (LLNL, LBNL, Sandia) in cooperation with EUV Consortsium funded by US Chipmakers (Intel, AMD, Motorola) and licenced to Cymer?

llm_nerd an hour ago | parent [-]

EUV was "invented" (demonstrated) in Japan first, though those US labs did a lot of work on the overall lithography system and reflective optics to put it into practice. The US DOE along with the manufacturers made a consortium (EUV LLC consortium) to commercialize/scale that Japanese technology because they could obviously see the promise, and Cymer is a member, as was ASML already via SVG.

Simultaneously Japan created its own initiative (EUVA), and Gigaphoton didn't rely upon the US initiative at all. And again in an alternate universe -- one where Japan isn't protectionist and Cymer wasn't out of financial runway and desperate -- we'd be talking about how ASML is really Japanese tech, etc.

petcat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff.

I never said anything about ASML stealing technology or ingenuity. The point is that EUV photolithography is an international effort. The machines don't exist at all without about 6 different countries contributing technology and expertise.

ASML has certainly proven itself to be a very capable integrator of many international technologies and processes.

saberience an hour ago | parent [-]

Most of those technologies being European, including the most difficult to make components in the system.

Why isn't there an American company doing this? Why isn't an American company making the lasers, mirrors, metrology, vacuum handling tech, etc?

tonyhart7 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

they are licensed to European company yes

reason why US didn't produce most of these component because US gov didn't continue investment so privately owned enterprise take over from there namely ASML

that also reason why US can restrict EUV sales to china

saberience an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Bingo!

Yes the OP is completely biased.

tjwebbnorfolk 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

ASML is the only real tech company in the EU. Just let them have this one :)

saberience an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

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