| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago |
| A third the cost, open source, and won't refuse every other request because of some vague possible connection to cybersecurity concerns. |
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| ▲ | dgellow 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| My questions about strawberries got blocked as too dangerous! I’m not joking |
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| ▲ | shikon7 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Strawberries are a well known weakness of LLMs, as they have a hard time to count the numbers of "r"s in them. Maybe that's why, because they fear that weakness could be exploited somehow. | | |
| ▲ | skeledrew 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Probably need to be taught by someone of Latino origin. Learning to roll them "r"s could help. | | | |
| ▲ | verdverm an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I always thought this should be easier by telling it to write each letter one a new line, then count, any token separator ought to suffice, so much so you'd think they'd have trained in this strategy given tokens make individual letters opaque |
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| ▲ | teaearlgraycold an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I asked about Tiananmen Square and it said it knew nothing about it. A real life “Doesn’t look like anything to me” moment. | |
| ▲ | bellowsgulch 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | My God! You're practically a terrorist and should be on a watchlist! Who knows what you'll ask next? "Who is the surgeon to the boy?" |
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| ▲ | fnordpiglet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interestingly the reality of the open source release is they are opening up to full distillation by the closed source model providers at a deeper and more fundamental level. If anything the open sourcing will help Anthropic and open ai ladder up faster. Open source has always been about mutual cooperation towards a goal and has never closed the door to commercial success. All the hand wringing about open weight models putting closed providers at a disadvantage doesn’t get what working in the open actually does for commercial interests - it is like science in the open - it enables and lifts all boats. Likewise commercial success doesn’t close the opportunity for competition or more open source work - it’s the economy of activity and competition that matters overall. When things stagnate is when closer concerns turtle up and collude on not competing for each others turf. The future is good and better for everyone the more work is in the open and the more work is in the commercial space. It’s good all around. |
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| ▲ | skeledrew an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The closed labs don't really benefit unless the open model has something extra they don't have though. Meanwhile the open model dilutes their customer base and seriously cheapens their offering (which is a heck of a good though IMO). | | |
| ▲ | fnordpiglet an hour ago | parent [-] | | Because the open model might have been distilled from outputs of the closed model doesn’t mean they are architecturally equivalent. There is almost certainly innovations in architecture present in the open models that the closed labs didn’t think of. It also is almost certainly true that they aren’t completely built out of a distilled corpus, that reinforcement is equivalent, etc. Therefore closed labs will also benefit from being able to inspect in totality the architecture, activations, weights, and be able to train against it at scale in an ensemble of other models and their internal work. The only way there is no benefit would be is if the open models are literal copies of the closed model, which unless there was direct theft, is highly improbable. |
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| ▲ | linkregister 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm happy that Kimi K3 is indeed SotA and its open weights are due to be released soon. It's also true that Moonshot and other labs distill from Claude. This has been reported on extensively. I don't think there's any alpha for Anthropic distilling from this model. I do not mean to discount the tremendous amount of innovation regarding MoE and quantization that Moonshot has accomplished. But its training with synthetic data is in large part from distillation from frontier labs. | | |
| ▲ | fnordpiglet an hour ago | parent [-] | | When I say distill I also mean mine it architecturally for insights but I doubt seriously the model training is entirely distillation of Claude, it’s almost certainly a mixture of both original corpus and reinforcement as well as distillation. I think it’s a little condescending to imply that these new open models are cheap ripoffs with nothing original to them. These teams and labs are top tier as well, working under unreasonable constraints imposed by the USG. That’s a powerful combination for creativity. | | |
| ▲ | linkregister 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think your characterization of my post, which credits Moonshot's innovation, goes a bit too far. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | villish 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| From the blog post moonshot refers to it as open source but only mentions releasing the weights. |
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| ▲ | culi an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | So far all the Kimi models have open sourced their code, their weights, and published technical reports explaining their training methodology. I expect the Kimi K3 Technical Report will come out July 27 and they usually publish the code and the weights alongside that. | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The weights are the "source" of a model. | | |
| ▲ | tadfisher 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If weights are the source for models then ELF binaries are the source for software. | | |
| ▲ | RobMurray an hour ago | parent [-] | | clearly not true. the weights are the preferred form for making modifications. Do you really think people should be downloading hundreds of TB of training data and running make to build the model on their own cluster of GPUs? | | |
| ▲ | villish an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Random people? No. Governments and big corporations? Yes. It removes any concern of "backdoors", and is currently the best starting point for your own model which will be as capable as k3. | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | villish an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I want to caution against this line of thinking. NSA's fast16 program silently altered data during nuclear simulations, and that is also possible within open weight models. There is no reason to think there is anything like that currently, it also cannot be dismissed. Open source would include the training data so you could create a similarly capable model. | | |
| ▲ | charcircuit an hour ago | parent [-] | | Training runs are not deterministic. Not just in the case of floating point not being associative, but nodes have hardware issues and go down and back up at various points through training. Problems get encountered and then various parameters get changed during the middle of a training run. Making the process of creating the source code repeatable goes beyond the idea of open source. Open source is about being able to work with the code, not recreate it. It doesn't require domain experts to document every single thing they know. For example look at some of the GPU drivers in the Linux kernel. The GPU is not properly documented and there is trust that vendors are implementing things correctly. | | |
| ▲ | villish 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Training runs are not deterministic. I agree which is why I said you could make a similarly capable model. > Open source is about being able to work with the code, not recreate it. You can also use a hex editor to modify compiled binaries, but no one would consider that "open source". |
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| ▲ | dymk 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The weights are the output artifact, the training corpus and system are the source. | | |
| ▲ | culi an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Kimi publishes their code and a technical report on their methodology. But I think the weights are still important. It means anyone with the resources could run the same model on their own hardware. | |
| ▲ | charcircuit an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The training corpus + training code is just an automated editor for the weights. It would be like requiring the source code for Visual Studio for software made within it to be open source. Weights are not an output artifact no more than source code is. There is never a moment where you can claim that it's done. As requirements change new ways to change the weights / code come up. With different projects you might want to import the weights / code into a bigger model / codebase. |
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| ▲ | OutOfHere 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Or biology or chemistry. |
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| ▲ | SXX an hour ago | parent [-] | | Or weapons manufacturing. It can refuse to answer on a lot of topics. |
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| ▲ | mikae1 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For regular chat users it's $19 while Claude is $20... |
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| ▲ | AlexErrant 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | $20 users don't get access to Fable. It's $100+ tier only. | | |
| ▲ | theplumber 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | What to do with $20 on Fable? One prompt or two ? | |
| ▲ | skeledrew an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm a $20 user and was given $100 extra usage credit today, "for Fable" (I'll be sticking to Sonnet and sometimes Opus TYVM). | |
| ▲ | mikae1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | True. However, I believe most non-programmers don't need access to the fanciest model, but just want to use a good LLM without constant nagging about usage limits. Then 19 vs. 20 is true? | | |
| ▲ | culi an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | No "19 vs 20" is not true for "Kimi vs Fable". It might be true for "Kimi vs Opus" or whatever. Anyways looking at pricing plans is not a good way of comparing the price of LLMs. It makes more sense to look at cost per token: Kimi K3: $3/$15 (input/output)
Fable: $10/$50
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| ▲ | potwinkle 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Still no. If you're only getting Opus-class you can still end up paying less by just using an equivalent Chinese model on OpenRouter. | | |
| ▲ | mikae1 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not talking about me or HN users in general. These companies likely need regular peeps to begin using their services in order to become profitable. Not sure these are the ones who will buy from OpenRouter. |
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| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| hmm almost like the exact race-to-the-bottom + arms-race dynamic all the doomers have been warning about |
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| ▲ | andrewmutz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | One man's offensive penetration tool is another mans defensive tool. In the recent HuggingFace/OpenAI incident the safety controls stood in the way of the defenders, not the attackers: https://www.thestack.technology/hugging-face-hacked-turned-t... | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're presenting further evidence of lack of effective control over these systems as... a mitigating factor...? | | |
| ▲ | ekidd 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Apparently, the attacker in the Hugging Face case was reported to be an internal OpenAI model trying to break into HF and steal the answers to cybersecurity benchmarks: https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-secur... It really doesn't matter what restrictions are placed on public use of models if the attacking models are internal models at the AI labs themselves. So if the AI labs are literally running rogue models breaking into other organizations' servers, then yes, I am OK with those organizations self-hosting Chinese models for defensive use. | |
| ▲ | californical 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why do you assume they're disagreeing with you? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > One man's offensive penetration tool is another mans defensive tool. seems to suggest the author believes there's some intrinsic equilibrium Which, 1) is definitely not proven and not guaranteed (open to proofs otherwise, not pithy sayings that have zero normative effect on reality) 2) is apparently "supported by" further evidence of lack of effective control, which does not feel like equilibrium whatsoever |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Race to the bottom for the investors, utility for the rest of us. The future is already here, it’s just not evenly distributed yet (Gibson). | |
| ▲ | skinfaxi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Doom for whom? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well considering it was just a few months ago that OpenAI had the brilliant idea of connecting these systems to autonomously run an actual protein synthesis wetlab, very possibly all of us. |
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