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recursive 21 hours ago

This is a far cry from the gravity of the post, but here's my personal anecdote about trying to navigate health care and insurance.

A month or two ago, I was trying to set up a pediatric dentist visit for my son. Not a medical emergency, but a matter of some urgency. I spent about three hours on a total of a dozen phone calls or so. Some to the insurer, and some to various dentist offices in the region to inquire about scheduling and logistics. I learned that I needed to switch my son's primary office before he would be eligible to receive care. This could only be done once per month. Fortunately, by luck, this would take effect at the close of business on that very day. Next I needed to find a covered provider. Of course, the insurer could not tell me which ones would have openings at short notice, so I had to call several. Then I learned that in order for a pediatric visit to be covered, it needed a referral from a general dentist. The pediatric office helped me find a dentist who could fill out this paperwork, which felt lucky. I verified that my policy worked with this dentist office. Several hours on the phone, but I had a sense of accomplishment for sorting it all out.

The day of the appointment came. The visit went smoothly. Then I found out that it wouldn't be covered because the insurance will not cover pediatric dentistry above the age of 6, but my son is 7.

I think I'm going to opt out of dental insurance altogether in the next enrollment. All the individual people seemed to be doing their best to help me, but the end result is a system that is impossible for me to use.

starkparker 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Insurance refused to cover imaging to identify my spouse's squamous cell carcinoma on an ovary because initial bloodwork didn't come back positive for ovarian cancer (squamous cell required different bloodwork, at least at the time).

It took a doctor offering to misdiagnose it as a dermoid cyst to get the imaging and hysterectomy ordered and approved, and that still took 2 months. By the time it happened, the cancer had metastasized.

The imaging would've cost a few thousand dollars. The hysterectomy would've cost about $20k-40k. Chemo was unsuccessful, and she died 9 months and about $2 million in medical bills later.

OutOfHere 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Which insurance firm was this?

Fwiw, if one has a passport and some funds, one can travel abroad for cheaper surgery abroad. It won't guarantee an outcome, but it ought to be better than delaying it. Of course this in no way excuses the insurance firm.

illliillll 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Or get the international plan from Cigna and they will happily pay for just about anything from any non-US provider.

So far over $5M into complex cancer care at the fanciest clinics in the world and never been questioned on a single claim.

vkou 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Which insurance firm was this?

Any of them.

They all behave in this exact same fucking way. Every single one has horror stories like this.

Sometimes you get lucky, and they don't fuck your particular case over, sometimes you don't.

mzs 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Similar story for our youngest - excuse after excuse. We just bought two round-trip tickets to Warsaw and paid privately. It was a little more but my wife and son got to spend time with friends and family for that extra. The effort we had spent in US we never got back. I hope it worked-out okay for your family as well.

usern20260720 17 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

all2 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've seriously considered opting out of health insurance altogether and stuffing away the obscenely priced monthly expense into an interest yielding account. Insurance is nightmarish, and I don't really want to deal with it much anymore.

I know this might appear foolish, but fighting with a corporation whose incentives are adverse to my own (both on the medical side and the insurance side) makes me a little sick to my stomach.

EvanAnderson 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you have enough money for that gamble to pay off over the long haul the cost of health insurance would be immaterial to you anyway. You might get away with it in your youth, or you might have a catastrophic loss and have your finances wrecked.

You're often able to negotiate discounts for cash payment from providers, but back when I had insurance that excluded a pre-existing condition I ran into providers who steadfastly demanded the full list price (under threat of collections). It only takes one of those standing pat on a high 5 or low 6-figure bill to cause you to lose on your "bet".

JohnFen 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you might have a catastrophic loss and have your finances wrecked.

If you have health insurance (in the US) and you have a catastrophic event, your finances are going to be totally wrecked anyway. You're likely to have to declare bankruptcy unless you are pretty wealthy. At least, that's how it's gone with every friend and family member of mine that had to navigate such an event. That's on top of the painful nightmare that is dealing with insurance company claims (which, to add insult to injury, you have to do when you're injured or sick).

The premiums are also so high that I'm very far from convinced that holding an actual health insurance policy is a better option than putting that premium money into an emergency fund.

hobonation 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Depends.

I got $300,000 in coverage for a catastrophic event and wound up paying $ 3,100.

But I did have good insurance with United Healthcare.

myrmidon 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Quick numbers that I found suggest lifetime healthcare costs of >$300k even if you're 65 already (with current yearly spending trending more towards $600k-ish).

So even with a (single) catastrophic event just paying yourself might save you money still (which seems insane to me).

EvanAnderson 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would agree that it's objectively terrible dealing with insurance companies, providers who are incredulous you care about the pricing of services, etc. There is no free market for healthcare services. Advocating for yourself is tremendously draining.

I'm happy with the ROI I've had with my insurance premiums over my life. I haven't had a catastrophic event but I've certainly had reasonably sizable claims. If I'd invested the last 20+ years of premium expense (about $400K to date) and had no claims I'd have a ton more money, but not enough to cover a catastrophic event later in life. The principal would also have been completely wiped-out a couple of times when I did have claims, however.

I pay the premiums because I'm not comfortable holding bets on both the market and on my health. I'm also unwilling to consider bankruptcy as a morally / socially acceptable solution.

This mixed socialized and capitalist "system" we've allowed to grow up feels like the worst possible one. Healthcare and health insurance expense are a mechanism to extract value from the middle class (i.e. everyone who has money but isn't wealthy enough to buy their way out of the "system").

My preference would be for a fully socialized system, built primarily around protection for catastrophic loss, where everyone contributes w/ no opting-out permitted.

Failing that I'll grudgingly take a fully capitalist system where people who can't afford to pay are left to fend for charity or die.

What we've got is a mix of the worst parts of both.

arjie 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I had a catastrophic event and it was not particularly wrecking to my finances. Judge for yourself: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Motorcycle_Accident

I had quite a few not-bills of the sort you see there totaling more than a few hundred thousand. Insurance coverage did work in my case.

rayiner 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If you have health insurance (in the US) and you have a catastrophic event, your finances are going to be totally wrecked anyway.

For most people, this is not true. Half of cancer patients and survivors say they have medical debt, and of those half have less than $5,000: https://www.fightcancer.org/releases/survey-finds-majority-c....

JohnFen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm just reporting my personal observations here. In several cases of major medical episodes I've personally witnessed, not a single person emerged from it without catastrophic financial damage. Most of these people had insurance plans that were considered very good or excellent.

starkparker 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's wild how differently the press release you linked to frames that.

> WASHINGTON, D.C. – Nearly half (49%) of cancer patients and survivors report being burdened by medical debt alongside some (13%) who report expecting to incur medical debt as part of their treatment plan, according to a new Survivor Views survey by the American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN). Interestingly, nearly all (98%) were insured when medical debt occurred.

> Among those with cancer-related medical debt, nearly half (49%) have carried more than $5,000 in debt, a majority (69%) of whom have carried this debt for more than a year. Respondents also reported most commonly owing their medical debt to a hospital (76%).

...

> According to the survey, an individual with cancer-related medical debt was three times more likely to be behind on recommended cancer screenings in comparison to those who have been able to pay for their care without accumulating debt. Nearly half (49%) saw their credit score decrease with 30% having difficulty qualifying for loans.

> Cancer-related medical debt is also not felt equally and further deepens disparities. Black (13%) and Hispanic (14%) patients and survivors with medical debt were twice as likely as White respondents to report being denied care due to their debt. Black respondents were also more likely to report being contacted by collections agencies (66%) and to feel harassed by them (44%).

rayiner 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, facts are more important than framing.

Look how many people in this thread are thinking about avoiding health insurance based on the premise that you’ll be financially wiped out by a catastrophic event even if you have insurance. That’s what happens when you put framing over facts. It’s important for people to understand the facts so they can make good decisions.

all2 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm essentially of the mindset of JohnFen (adjacent comment). If I have a health issue that crops up, I'm financially done anyway. Given this, I might as well control the money rather than throw it into a pit and hope something useful pops out in an emergency.

tracker1 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The collection laws also vary from state to state on this... in some states, medical collections are all but toothless, short of actually filing a lawsuit, which isn't likely, except some facilities actually have staff lawyers willing to harass and sue.

ButlerianJihad 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, you can try for sure to default on medical debts without suffering a hit to your credit, but goood luck obtaining future care from any provider that you’ve stiffed.

How many big medical systems/districts in your region can you run up a balance until none will serve you, except through the E.D.?

tracker1 19 hours ago | parent [-]

I have an 18yo bill for a medical lab, and I still get my regular bloodwork there... It gets brought up now and then on current visits, and I just say, "I'm not paying that bill."

As to the why, it's because I switched jobs and got my regular labs done and apparently was between coverage that week... they tried to charge me a large multiple of what they charged insurance for the same labs, so I refused to pay.

I also had several bills that were never paid from a week long hospital stay in my mid 30's... Most of them got paid if they'd agree to reasonable payments or settle for lower amounts when I had the money (tax return time, bonus, side work). After 7 years, they were all off my credit and I stopped bothering...

plagiarist 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Catastrophic events seem to wipe people out financially regardless of insurance status. I keep hearing of people divorcing so their former spouse can keep some assets while they are battling cancer. There's just no winning unless you never need care.

mothballed 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I did that for much of my 20s and very glad I did. You are basically used parasitically by the Obamacare system as it caps the differential between young and elderly to the point it's well into the expected negative value, and you're young enough that the off chance of the bet going bad only results in declaring bankruptcy on a few years of professional salary.

tracker1 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fortunately, out of pocket for relatively normal dental care isn't too bad... probably because Dental insurance doesn't really help much and often easier to just pay out of pocket.. though do shop around if you do so.

BrandoElFollito 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In France, land of free helthcare, the problem is ultimately the same but for different reasons. We do not have enough doctors (they lobbied a law to set quotas) and finding a specialist is a near miracle.

Then the doctors complain that they are overworked because of what their seniors put in place.

The problem is never the money, though.