> ads are not bad

Ads are noise deliberately added to the signal. They're content you did not seek out and probably don't want. All advertisements are inherently untrustworthy: they're getting paid to sell you something, naturally they will exaggerate the positives and downplay the negatives. Conflicts of interest doesn't even begin to describe it.

That's the charitable interpretation. One could describe advertising as mind rape. You don't consent to it, you don't want it. They just keep trying to forcibly insert the data into your mind anyway. You block them, they bypass your blocker, which arguably makes them malware as well.

They feel entitled to our cognition, memories, attention. They think it's theirs to sell off to the highest bidder. They make it even harder for people with attention deficit to concentrate by trying to forcibly grab their attention. It's not only an accessibility problem, it's also a form of aggression, which makes uBlock Origin a form of justified self-defense.

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tensor 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

100% agree. Everyone is susceptible to ads, even if few believe it. The ad pushers know it. It's a form of information warfare, not simply business. If I'm looking for a product and ask a vendor to give me pitch, great. But if I'm doing something else and vendor propaganda is forced on me interrupting my task, that's not ok in any way.

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dzonga 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If I put out a native ad - uBlock Origin won't work on it. since it's just an html <p> tag or any other element.

the ad industry at large has caused damage - for you to think ads are not beneficial and intrusive or mind rape as you call it - through excessive mining, data selling.

but like an example - I gave - there's an article about cars - and in there there's a text item that says BMW or Cadillac has released a new V8 or electric sedans. if you're a car enthusiast that's relevant to you, if you're not - it's still information that maybe a year down the line - you might find relevant.

not logical but it works. and that's what runs the world - whether you like it or not. see the world as it is.

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matheusmoreira 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> If I put out a native ad - uBlock Origin won't work on it. since it's just an html <p> tag or any other element.

It absolutely will. I routinely block all sorts of elements on pages. If I think your <p> is annoying, it will get zapped with extreme prejudice.

> there's an article about cars - and in there there's a text item that says BMW or Cadillac has released a new V8 or electric sedans

That's just normal information. I don't consider it advertising. Users go to the site to read about cars, they're getting exactly what they wanted.

If I go to the market, it's because I want to see the products. If I open the app, it's because I want to see the offerings. If I come to HN, it's because I want to see submissions and comments.

In these cases, it's not advertising, it's the exact information I requested. It becomes advertising if they pay money to shove the products into my face while I'm trying to read a programming blog.

> not logical but it works. and that's what runs the world - whether you like it or not. see the world as it is.

Yeah, well the world sucks, the world is wrong and I'll fight it. I couldn't care less how much money they lose. My mind is sacred, and I don't have memory to waste on brands, slogans and jingles.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people from literally banning advertising. It's a very simple policy decision. People just have to develop the audacity to demand it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa

https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secret...

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dzonga 16 hours ago | parent [-]

so when you come to HN - and there's a story on the 1st Page about a YC company hiring - that you can't comment on - but just click.

to you is that an AD ?

for all contexts and purposes it's an ad. is it intrusive ? no. that's just a native ad. are you gonna zap it ? most times - just leaving it there makes sense than going through the effort of using the ublock origin picker.

	▲	matheusmoreira 14 hours ago \| parent [-]
		To me it's just a submission. No different than a Show HN. Marketing people seem to think that everything you do that advances your interests is advertising. Maintaining a good appearance is advertising, because you're "selling yourself". I don't subscribe to that definition.

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WarmWash 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>You don't consent to it, you don't want it.

By viewing ad supported content, you are inherently agreeing to see ads. That is the product being sold. If you don't want to see ads, don't load the content. It's very simple and plainly understandable.

People using all manner of backdoor techniques to sidestep the parts that they don't want, kills the demand to create a product they do want.

So rather than a paywalled news org that has no ads on the other side of the wall, we have ublock origin and archive.is

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matheusmoreira 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> By viewing ad supported content, you are inherently agreeing to see ads.

I agree to absolutely nothing, least of all "inherently". Following a link to a website gives exactly no one the right to assault me with advertising. If they try, I will defend myself with every single technology at my disposal.

> That is the product being sold.

Not a single thing is being sold here. Browsers make requests, servers can decide whether to reply or not. They're the ones who send web pages to anyone who asks for free.

They do so under the assumption that we'll look at the ads they bundled with the pages. We're under exactly zero obligation to validate that assumption.

If they want money, they should charge people directly. If they send us ads, we'll delete them.

> If you don't want to see ads, don't load the content.

I'm under no obligation to "not load" anything whatsoever. Browsers make requests, that's how the web works. If they reply with free web pages, I'm only too happy to consume them. If they don't like it, they're free to return HTTP 402 Payment Required.

> It's very simple and plainly understandable.

Apparently not, since you believe they are "selling" web pages. They're making a bet that giving us free web pages loaded with ads will pay off. They're not entitled to win that bet.

> People using all manner of backdoor techniques to sidestep the parts that they don't want

As is our god given right. Nothing "backdoor" about it either.

If someone hands me a magazine for free, I'm not obligated to look at the ads to "pay them back" or anything of the sort. In fact I can just rip out the ad pages and throw them in the trash, where they belong, and then fully enjoy my free gift.

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WarmWash 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Ok, I follow.

Now why doesn't that logic apply to roadside farm stands?

Really I'd just like a general rule that we can apply to any [value transaction] to determine when compensation for that value is optional.

So I can quickly evaluate that I should leave money for the produce I take, but I optionally can leave money for the articles I read. Or perhaps roadside stands are fair game for "they could put a lock and on door and a phone to the house if they want compensation for their goods"?

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matheusmoreira 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> Now why doesn't that logic apply to roadside farm stands?

Because they are completely different categories of business. Stands don't give out free products to anyone who asks. Unlike web servers, they are actually selling stuff. You don't get products unless you pay for them. There is no "I'll give everyone free stuff then hope it comes back to me" deal.

> Really I'd just like a general rule that we can apply to any [value transaction] to determine when compensation for that value is optional.

If they give you the product for free, then compensation is optional. If they charge you money before giving you the product, then compensation is not optional.

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WarmWash 8 hours ago | parent [-]

..but they are not giving the product for free, they are putting ads on it. You're the one deciding to ignore the money basket because no one stops you from taking the product for free.

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matheusmoreira 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> ..but they are not giving the product for free

They are. Not a single cent changed hands.

> they are putting ads on it

Still free. Attention is not a currency you can pay for things with. Bundling advertisements with free products doesn't magically turn them into paid products.

Further discussion is not possible unless you accept this.

	▲	WarmWash 8 hours ago \| parent [-]
		..and putting a money basket in a farm stand doesn't mean the produce costs money? And yes, advertisements definitely do cover hard costs like hosting (serving you is not free) and paying for the time/expertise to produce the content. I don't know how you convinced yourself that digital data is worthless, but it's not and actually costs money to make and serve. Just like everything else you (hopefully) have no problem covering the cost of (you don't just take from farm stands, do you?)