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| ▲ | sph 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I keep forgetting that there is a requirement to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in US schools [1], which is just mind-boggling to me, and it's never something they proudly advertise through their propaganda arm of Hollywood. In hundreds of US-produced shows set in US schools, that detail is always conveniently omitted. Here's how it works for the non-Americans of us: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Remembering this often-forgotten detail puts a lot of US culture and behaviour in perspective. Also let's not forget the Bellamy salute, in use for 50 years until 1942: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute --- 1: and in congressional sessions, government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations, according to Wikipedia | | |
| ▲ | TheCleric 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I keep forgetting that there is a requirement to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in US schools There most certainly is not. The pledge is common in schools but the Supreme Court has ruled no one is required to participate and cannot be punished for non-participation. Is it still weird? Sure. But it’s not required. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | "Not required" but my teachers made it abundantly clear what they thought of being forced to allow ungrateful troublemakers to disrespect their country. I always disliked the Pledge and began to strongly dislike it after moving away from the religion it tries to establish as the national religion, but I was keenly aware that picking this fight would cost me considerable political capital and chose not to. | |
| ▲ | Hizonner 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Somehow nobody ever bothers to mention to the kids that it's not required. How many schools still do it, though? Honestly you could tell me it was almost universal or very rare, and I'd have to believe you either way. Of course, Canada was doing the freaking Lord's Prayer in schools until freaking 1988. I don't know about other countries, but wouldn't be surprised. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In the US schools I'm familiar with, it's "not required" kind of like how it's not required to attend meetings at work. Nobody's forcing you, but it will be noticed and there will be consequences. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > there will be consequences What sort of consequences? I'm guessing the US got rid of corporal punishment, and since it's optional, could they give like detention and stuff for it? Or is this more about being bullied/similar by peers? | | |
| ▲ | kube-system 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | When I was in school decades ago, the consequences were that the teacher would single you out and scold you to “follow directions”, maybe they’d do whatever write up for not following directions. I’m sure in some places kids got detention or letters sent home to their parents, etc. Also the US did not get rid of corporal punishment entirely, the south still has it in some places. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_... | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake an hour ago | parent [-] | | Sometimes it's not even direct consequences. You stand out as "that kid" and suddenly, you aren't given the benefit of the doubt the next time there is some kind of conflict at school. Or you are held to the rules -just a bit- more strictly than everyone else. Or, if your grade is on the border between a B+ and A-, they'll give you the B where they give the more obedient kids the A. When you become "that kid" the consequences can be almost invisible and insidious. At least in the US, teachers and administrators are given rather broad latitude to treat students differently, without requiring justification and very often based on their own personal biases and prejudices. |
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| ▲ | opan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I had to do the pledge in early elementary school. It didn't continue forever. Not sure if people still do it. I do agree it's disturbing. Interestingly we once read a book in school that featured a character who refused to say the pledge and got in trouble for it. IIRC it was a case of "you aren't technically required to do this but they'll give you a hard time if you're the only one not doing it". | | |
| ▲ | falsemyrmidon 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I stopped doing it when I was in high school (I just stood there) and no one cared. This would have been about 22 years ago |
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| ▲ | fnord77 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It didn't seem mind-boggling during the cold war. But I guess it does now. |
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| ▲ | arcbyte 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In general, we Americans really, really love our country. Our flag still represents values tied closely to our revolutionary war and and independence. Obviously the flag gets wrapped around all sorts of causes, even contradictory ones, but that core kernel of shared values is truly universal. So as individuals we choose to fly the flag a lot. | |
| ▲ | haunter 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not american but afaik it's very common. The US is on a different level though, see the flags in the suburbia, the pledge of allegiance in school's every morning etc. But I'd say it's not "too much nationalism" rather the average american is defintiely more patriotic than an average european (who can then again be anyone from the UK to Poland to Moldova) but you get my point | | |
| ▲ | sgc 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I am American who has lived in many countries around the world, and I think this is distinctly wrong and the source of many problems in the US. It would be more correct to say that the average American values outward displays of nationalism more, and has a more negative perception of those who do not appreciate or want to participate in those displays than people in most other countries. And yes, they conflate this with 'patriotism'. However, this is almost completely performative and lacks real substance, as is proven by the typically far more selfish attitude towards their fellow citizens, and is exemplified by the constant historical failures to provide significant funding for projects designed to help rather than harm others. Europeans and people from other countries around the world are often fiercely in love with their countries. They just tend not to love the idea of noisily jumping up to gaudily beat their own drum. So yes, the average American thinks they are more nationalistic, when in fact they are just more tribal and crude about their nationalism than what is typically found in other countries around the world. If only our nationalism were taken a bit more seriously than our affiliation with a sports team, which is in theory just for fun and entertainment, that would be an improvement. | | |
| ▲ | altcognito an hour ago | parent [-] | | Leadership in European countries is so routinely in conflict with their people who understand the inalienable rights of the people so well. I wonder where that comes from. You're not wrong that the American public is largely out of touch with the fundamentals of a free society. | | |
| ▲ | gchamonlive 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Leadership in European countries is so routinely in conflict with their people > I wonder where that comes from. > Leadership Democracy is great but that elected leaders seek reelection at the expense of the common folk isn't something new, for those in power will seek more power. The problem is that Americans look at vulnerable people and billionaires like they individually deserved their fate. The cult of merit. |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When I was younger, I would have thought that, but now I have trouble distinguishing nationalism and white supremacism when I see enthusiastic usage of flags/pledges. | |
| ▲ | Hizonner 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Patriotism is soft nationalism, and any of either is too much. |
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| ▲ | projektfu 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is common but I think these displays in the press release are for the photo. I would expect to see a large flag on a tall pole outside most large factories, but inside the decorations will range from bland, to company-oriented, to patriotic. A defense plant probably has more outward signs of patriotism. | |
| ▲ | usrusr an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not a friend of nationalism, but I believe that it's a trade-off: of you want to be open to immigration, of the kind that pulls in newcomers, inviting them to become a part of the place they move to, instead of remaining outsiders, you have to give them plenty of opportunity to identify with their new home. Of course these days, we see the American flag used a lot in ways completely opposite to this, but that does not change the great progressive value national symbols could provide. | |
| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is not uncommon to have national and state flags, but it is not similar to how dictators like to hang their portraits. It is meant more to show pride of what you build together as a people, rather than to evoke fear and obeisance. That said, this may have also been a photo op, and given the image is from texas, there are probably portraits of a dictator hanging around, too. | | |
| ▲ | johannes1234321 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Also he dictatorship are (officially) pride of doing their work for the state as Americans work multiple jobs in fear of losing their paychecks, their health insurance. | | |
| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you really think someone waving their country's flag is the same as waving a flag with the face of a dictator? Worldwide? | | |
| ▲ | johannes1234321 an hour ago | parent [-] | | This thread was about omnipresent flag presence in factories and such. And the way it's done in America is different from many other countries. |
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| ▲ | esseph 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | US flag is everywhere. Indoor weightlifting gyms, hanging inside large hangers for aircraft, in schools, factories outside your company HQ on the flagpole, etc. | |
| ▲ | hybrid_study 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | you have no idea. lol | |
| ▲ | drnick1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The fact that the European flag isn't seen anywhere in Europe tells you a lot about how people really feel about the E.U. | | |
| ▲ | picofarad 44 minutes ago | parent [-] | | People in these comments are saying the US flag just represents white supremacy to them now... The media has really done a number on us, basically throughout the West. I don't know enough about other area's media to comment. |
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