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1shooner 6 hours ago

>We plan to transfer that ownership to an appropriate, independent protocol governance organization in the future.

I never realized there is no independent governance org that should have registered this. So AT is governed by a single for-profit entity, that also runs the only viable instance?

steveklabnik 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is an IETF Working Group these days https://atproto.com/blog/kicking-off-the-atp-working-group

Those can't register trademarks, of course.

> that also runs the only viable instance?

This is false, both in the framing ("instances") and in the viability of running alternative infrastructure.

nar001 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How do you mean? As in you can run different instances or as in it's a false open protocol?

bmacho an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Read the recently frontpaged "There are no instances in ATProto" by dan abramov <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48599515>

herrkanin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

ATProto is closer to how RSS works than ActivityPub. In the same way talking about "RSS instances" makes little sense, the same goes for "ATProto instances".

notpushkin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators”. Especially it makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators that speak a specific vocabulary on top of RSS, host 99% of content using that vocabulary, and if you host your own RSS feed with said vocabulary they’ll show it in their aggregator but can ban it any minute”.

Did I just describe Apple Podcasts? Huh. Regardless, yeah, there’s no “ATProto instances” technically, but there are ATProto apps and the single biggest one now owns the trademark to the protocol name.

zoul 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But it’s true in the general idea of Bluesky being highly centralized and dependent on a single for-profit entity.

sedatk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So AT is governed by a single for-profit entity

A Public Benefit Corporation to be precise. So they are legally obligated to favor public benefit.

ocdtrekkie 4 hours ago | parent [-]

OpenAI proved even being a nonprofit can be handled away if the money's good enough. PBCs are much weaker in that regard than nonprofits.

kmeisthax 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Only viable instance" is not really the correct framing - Bluesky doesn't have instances. Anyone using ATProto without Bluesky will still be "on Bluesky".

When you go to bsky.app, you're interacting with the Bluesky AppView; one key feature of ATProto is that any AppView can interact with any (consenting) Personal Data Server (PDS). So you can self-host your PDS but still use bsky.app if you so choose. But critically, anyone can write an AppView; there are reimplementations of Bluesky as well as other social apps that use the same ATProto infrastructure. That would be closest thing to a Mastodon instance, except you don't have to host your data on it in order to use it. Imagine being able to go to a Lemmy instance and just post things with your Mastodon identity, and have everything show up without Mastodon having to know anything about Lemmy magazines or its special upvote / comment formats.

The actual centralization in ATProto lies in a combination of unfortunate design decisions and genuine friction in the self-hosted path. Being totally reliant on Bluesky is the happy path, self-hosting your PDS data is difficult but doable, and being totally independent of Bluesky is only possible if you do everything correctly right at the start.

First off, Bluesky doesn't offer any GUI tools for PDS migration. If you want to get off their PDS, you'll need to bust out command-line tools and possibly do some steps in advance of when you need to migrate in order for everything to work properly.

Second, even if you're on a PDS, you're still reliant on the Public Ledger of Credentials (PLC) to host your Distributed ID (DID) document. The PLC is run by Bluesky, although they've taken steps to make it easy to notice if they were to do something fucky with the PLC. But let's say we don't like that. There is a solution: you can host your DID document on a normal web server. Problem solved?

Well, if you were setting up an account for the first time, then yes, the problem is actually solved, you're 100% independent of Bluesky. But if you made the mistake of registering an account normally, you have a did:plc identity. And one core principle of ATProto is that identity names never ever ever change. So if you go and make a did:web identity, it's like having a second account, there is no way to tie your old did:plc identity into it. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't even redirect one did:web identity to another (say if you need to switch domain names)

Regarding Bluesky's "independent protocol governance organization", they made the same promise about the PLC; but it hasn't actually been transferred yet. I would be a lot more bullish on ATProto if there was a way to migrate DIDs and retain all your followers and shit. And if there was proper graphical tools for data migration.

chowells 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Bluesky has a data store, handles account authorization, and runs a web app that provides a UI to access the backend services. That's an instance, whether they call it one or not. Refusal to admit this is obfuscation for reasons I cannot understand.

paride5745 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The nightmare of the Wsocial rollout is a testament of the massive control Bluesky has on the ATProto network.

If Wsocial was on ActivityPub or Nostr nothing similar would have happened.

ATProto has serious centralisation problems, baked into the design. And it makes sense, considering it came out of a Twitter R&D experiment to "decentralise" Twitter itself. Pure federation was never part of the initial design.

ActivityPub and Nostr solve the issue already.

hack1312 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I would be a lot more bullish on ATProto if there was a way to migrate DIDs and retain all your followers and shit. And if there was proper graphical tools for data migration.

This is exactly where I’ve landed re: ATProto. If you actually want to self-host everything you lose one of the biggest draws of it, the migratable IDs.

I was looking into it to build an alternative to Threads/IG/TikTok for one of my hobby communities that’s become almost entirely reliant on Meta/Tencent. Being able to plug into the wider AT Proto world was a big draw, but not being able to self host a true alternative to did:plc has put a halt to that for now while I figure out what I want to do.

wolvoleo an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks for your clear and concise explanation!

isodev 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nothing Bluesky does is really independent. This is such a transparent playbook and yet folks keep falling for a couple of open source repos and whatever hot takes Dan Abramov posts to reframe “instances” to “open social” bs.