| ▲ | ls_stats 4 hours ago |
| America needs its own DeepSeek or Z.ai, a lot of people (myself included) root for open chinese models to win because they have no other choice. Thinking Machines might be it. |
|
| ▲ | joshmarlow 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I don't hear about them a lot but it looks like arcee.ai is aiming to be just that. Here are some of their current open weight offerings: https://www.arcee.ai/open-source-catalog |
|
| ▲ | gkapur 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It could be but there are a host of companies going after open weights models: Arcee, Reflection, Llama (TBD on Meta's focus on closed-source versus open-source), etc. That said, the fine-tuning API + open weight model at least is a semblance of a viable business that could work so I will be curious about it. I'm not sure the synergy is fully there (why is someone with an open weights model privelaged to fine-tune it better if it's just QLora or Lora) but let's see! |
| |
| ▲ | andriy_koval 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It could be but there are a host of companies going after open weights models: Arcee, Reflection, Llama (TBD on Meta's focus on closed-source versus open-source), etc. my bet is that Chinese government fund Chinese models way more compared to what those companies receive (except llama, which is outdated but was strong foundation at its time) | | |
| ▲ | gkapur 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The story of Reflection AI is supposedly that the company was faffing and failing at winning in the coding agent space, but was introduced to Jenson, who suggested they build an open-weight model and said he would fund it. That turned into a $2 billion financing with NVIDIA doing roughly $500 million and was a complete pivot. I think the bet would have to be that a US Open Weight company either: 1. Gets a lot of money from Jenson who views them as a counterbalance to the big labs in his ecosystem and a way to generate leverage (the same way he is positioning neoclouds-- it also could be synergistic with neoclouds who could offer the model serving endpoints) 2. Can fast follow the same way Mistral does (which, honestly, seems like just distilling the Chinese model, which distills the US lab but is pretty innovative on a whole lot of architecture both in training and serving land.) 3. AND figure out some (maybe not super lucrative but lucrative enough) sort of business model, as well. There are lots of possible business models, so I will be curious how this whole space evolves. | | |
| ▲ | fmajid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Jensen Huang is just trying to commoditize the complements to his GPUs. | |
| ▲ | andriy_koval 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > That turned into a $2 billion financing with NVIDIA doing roughly $500 million and was a complete pivot. I suspect 2B is not enough to boostrap frontier model from the scratch (for both talent and hardware) |
| |
| ▲ | mannanj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have a similar bet. Looks like people don't like this idea. You got downvoted a lot. |
| |
| ▲ | YetAnotherNick an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do any of these even have match a year old Deepseek 3.1? | | |
| ▲ | suprjami 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | DS3 isn't even looked at anymore. GLM-5.2 is the best in that class right now. It is competitive with current GPT/Claude/Gemini. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Hopefully they'll release some smaller models (<100B) that we can run on home hardware at faster than 10tok/s. |
|
| ▲ | bostonvaulter2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What is the business model for an open weight model? |
| |
| ▲ | ergocoder 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The same business model that Deepseek is using. Open-source models + services. This is more attractive because it doesn't lock in the vendors. If I grow larger, I can decide to deploy the open-source models. | | |
| ▲ | andriy_koval an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > The same business model that Deepseek is using. there is a chance their business model is absorbing government funding.. | |
| ▲ | tyre 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So they're constantly hemorrhaging their most valuable clients? Tech history is littered with the corpses of "open source but we sell hosting" services. Models are so expensive to train, you can't be losing the big clients once they get super profitable. | | |
| ▲ | MikeTheGreat 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This is genuine, noob question: how is this different from AWS? I get that they're in very different businesses, but for both don't they have the issue that once a client gets big enough the client might decide to move the services in-house? Based on how much of the internet went down when that AWS data center crashed the answer is clearly "No" for AWS. Is that because of physical, real-world infrastructure? Are there no open versions of their APIs? Is it too hard to migrate to something else once a client has achieved that size? |
|
| |
| ▲ | matsur 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thinky has a potential answer in Tinker — give away the weights and charge for the SFT (and maybe RL down the line) to make the model more capable for specific tasks. | | | |
| ▲ | chrsw 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US, there isn't one, which is why nobody in the US is currently doing it at frontier scale. And the people that were doing it stopped. | |
| ▲ | raincole 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To compete against America. If your country has something like DeepSeek you really can't afford to let it fall as it's your best leverage if the US government decides to ban companies in your country from accessing American LLMs. And this is why there will never be a "DeepSeek of the US." | | |
| ▲ | gtirloni 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Considering how volatile things can get depending on who's president, I'd say even American companies need to "compete against America" if they don't want to get their rug pulled from under them (which, apparently, the legal system allows to easily happen in the US). |
| |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
| ▲ | jauntywundrkind an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Also the fact that China is building solar power like crazy: that makes it fantastically more well spirited an endeavor to wish well. |
|
| ▲ | tonic_note 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| isn't that what Reflection is trying to be? |
|
| ▲ | verdverm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Its not as good as GLM 5.2 for agentic workflows while also being bigger. Competition is going to be ruthless because the super low cost to switching. There is also AllenAi in the US, but they have yet to produce a model at this scale. Thankfully, new contenders can come out of nowhere and do well, as long as they can produce a competitive model. |
| |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Its not as good as GLM 5.2 for agentic workflows while also being bigger GLM 5.2 underwent extensive post-training and iteration since its original release to reach its current state. This seems like an extremely strong model for a first release, with a lot of potential for improvement, just like DS4. Sometimes I wish Meta had stuck with Llama 4 a bit longer to see how much further it could be pushed. | | | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
| ▲ | fastball an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What about Meta? |
|
| ▲ | insane_dreamer an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s what Meta was supposed to do but Llama fell of the wagon. There’s also Prism |
|
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [deleted] |
