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yogthos 5 hours ago

[flagged]

circlefavshape 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers which even Asimov in the 1980s could see was laughably inefficient

1984 was published in 1949. It's a bit harsh to expect him to have anticipated computers

TimorousBestie 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In addition, he was riffing on Jeremy Bentham’s panopticon, a hub-and-spoke style prison design with a single guard at the hub observing the prisoners in each spoke.

1984 imagines a telecom-enabled nationwide panopticon, which made for good speculative fiction in the 50’s (and also does now). Asimov wishes he had been that prescient.

yogthos 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Read what Asimov says in his review, the whole idea is fundamentally absurd when you think about it for even a second.

isx726552 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Asimov seems to have missed that the book does not claim that everyone is being watched at all times, but that everyone could be watched at any time, in any place, and that they have no way to know for sure if they are at any given moment. Therefore, they have to behave as if they are under surveillance at all times, just in case. It’s a very effective and practical means of control. See the famous panopticon concept. You don’t even need a guard in the tower, just the threat of one most of the time, and occasional random, unpredictable enforcement just often enough that the surveilled cannot relax. The cost of doing so is not impractical at all.

Asimov is missing an important point that is pretty clearly spelled out in the novel, and this severely weakens his critique. I find this pretty funny because he starts off the essay insinuating that others who claim to love the book haven’t read it. Same to you for hating it without having understood it, Asimov!

yogthos 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

paleotrope 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That review is hilarious.

"To summarise, then: George Orwell in 1984 was, in my opinion, engaging in a private feud with Stalinism, rather that attempting to forecast the future."

He really got it!

And shows how fundamentally Asimov misunderstands how totalitarian societies work. "Furthermore, he has a system of volunteer spies in which children report on their parents, and neighbours on each other. This cannot possibly work well since eventually everyone reports everyone else and it all has to be abandoned"

autoexec 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and the technology is nonsensical like having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers

I think our current world proves that being watched by humans hits people in a way that being monitored by computers doesn't. Remember those "Surveillance Camera Man" videos? You can see countless examples online of people freaking out at a human engaging in public photography because they filmed them or snapped a picture. Often they do it while standing directly under surveillance cameras. It doesn't matter to people if their ring camera is using facial recognition and logging everything within its field of view and secretly forwarding that data to law enforcement agencies, but try standing on the sidewalk in front of their house and recording everyone who comes and goes and see how they react.

willy_k 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Because one scenario is more directly tied to potential (undesirable) uses of the photos, and more obviously doing something. If people saw consequences resulting from security cameras, they would pay more mind to them. People aren’t ignoring a security camera in a bathroom.

autoexec an hour ago | parent [-]

I mean, when it comes to things like ring/nest cameras and ALPRs everybody is pretty upfront about the fact that all the footage they collect is going to be used against you in one way or another. It's pretty hard to get a more direct tie to potential (undesirable) uses. Amazon has made headlines after being sued for giving employees and contractors "unfettered" access to personal videos, and for allowing contractors to listen to people having sex, and for giving police access to the feeds without consent, but people are still buying them up and using them.

A street photographer is a much smaller threat. What's the worst some random person on a public street can do with your photograph? Compare that with the harm that can be done by a massive corporation with billions at their disposal who has been building a dossier on you for decades and who records you 24/7 and is determined to use that data in any way that makes them profit regardless of what you want or what the law says.

gdsimoes 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find Orwell to be a much better writer than Asimov, and 1984 was praised by people like Bertrand Russell (who was arguably a greater writer than either of them, even winning a Nobel Prize).

Also, Orwell was shot in the neck in Spain while literally fighting fascists.

Still, thank you for the link to Asimov’s review. I’ll read it later.

yogthos 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I find Orwell is infantile in the extreme.

dash2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is beyond silly. The guy who wrote Down and Out… and Road to Wigan Pier, and actually fought fascists in Spain, couldn’t imagine proles as anything but brainless subhumans? Orwell in 1948 didn’t predict computers? Have I been trolled?

VonGuard 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Obvious troll. Calling Orwell a rich kid who got his feelings hurt is obscene. I challenge anyone who says that to work as a plongeur for even one week. Or to live on only toast and tea, bumming around the work houses in the UK. He never begged for money from anyone, he only worked during this time, and his book on the topic is remarkable. It's a must read for anyone who's ever worked in the food service industry.

His work house experiences informed 1984. The original poster in this comment thread is just trolling beyond belief, and also, seems to have no grasp of the topics at hand what so ever.

yogthos 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The guy was literally just slumming it by choice. Only one trolling here is you bud.

redsocksfan45 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

kfjeifjejfj 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's frankly incredible that his shallow writing became a cultural icon in the west.

It’s precisely BECAUSE it’s a fairly shallow “bad government bad” story that it’s such a cultural icon everywhere. People like easy-to-digest things that they can point at and feel smarter.

5 hours ago | parent [-]
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