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sixtyj 3 hours ago

> There is the appealing idea that AI-assisted programming means better tools which lets us build more ambitious software. That is certainly true at the level of the individual and without doubt a developer with an agent will be dramatically more capable of changing a codebase. But large software projects have never been limited only by how quickly an individual can produce code. They are limited by how well people can coordinate their understanding of the system they are changing.

So true.

Since Nov 30, 2022 everything has become… more complex.

overgard 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel like with software, things have gotten way too complicated (just layer's upon layers upon layers). But to deal with that complexity, now we're using something that just creates WAY more complexity. I've been coding for a while, and I remember the 90s and early 00s where people could make pretty powerful applications with like visual basic or php with essentially no formal training. Those technologies weren't great, but they were really simple and easy to pick up. In contrast, if you try to pick up web development or desktop app development today, it's absolutely overwhelming. Like, something like React is useful but the amount of things you need to know to use it properly is pretty high.

I think introducing AI to deal with this is overall a mistake though. We're just adding more complexity on top of the existing complexity. At best, it's a massive waste of hardware. At worst, we'll probably have agents introducing as many bugs as they fix as they also drown in complexity, and a lot of stuff built using these techniques are going to be fragile garbage while the overall skillset of humanity diminishes because people aren't learning the skills anymore.

Fundamentally, software does not need to be this complicated and it's a solvable problem, but it does require people that care about craftsmanship.

throwaway219450 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I had a discussion with folks at work about what information is worth retaining in the face of AI doing everything for us. A lot of what we have in our heads to qualify as "domain experts" is pretty esoteric. How to invoke command line tools, gotchas because library A uses one convention over library B, AWS vs GCP; so much is specific to a tool rather than a method. There are also a lot of entrenched tools that are effectively unfixable due to the risk of breaking changes, so you have to shrug and accept + learn that's how it works.

Catch-22 is it's still important to know the fundamentals so you know what to ask for, but if you don't know the esoterica, the model is eventually going to make an assumption and screw things up. And the models don't have much taste either in prose, or in coding/comment style.

SoftTalker an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And what's ironic is that a lot of those layers and complexity were added with the stated goal of making it easier for average developers to build applications.

sixtyj an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Amen.

Drowning in complexity. Paralysis of choice.

I read a comment (joke) that if you want to follow all LLM development you should have to be unemployed.

lelanthran 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They are limited by how well people can coordinate their understanding of the system they are changing.

It's not really news, though. Programming as Theory Building (Peter Naur) was published in the 80s, I think?

Maybe the younger entrants to this field never came across it, but even if you never came across it, it was common knowledge amongst experienced devs that understanding of the system you are about to change is crucial.

sixtyj an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The complexity of coordinating a project involving more than one entity is, of course, an issue across all industrial sectors—just look at the construction industry.

Thanks for mentioning Peter Naur’s Programming as Theory Building (1985).

I would add Fred Brooks and his The Mythical Man-Month.

jgalt212 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's not really news, though. Programming as Theory Building (Peter Naur) was published in the 80s, I think?

The news is that Agentic Programming has made this always challenging task even more challenging.

calvinmorrison 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know. some stuff has gotten less. Major databases now ship effective HA tooling, microservices seem on their way out, structured databases seem to be back in instead of NoSQL.

HTML and pre-rendering are back in, HTMx, liveview

The degaussing of CSS and the hacks we did, hell i was trying to explain how we debugged web pages in IE6 to a younger staff member today.

Some things are more complex, some things got good enough to make them less complex.

endorphine 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A database with built-in HA is a significantly more complex system than one without it.

hilariously 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And one built without it and not coordinating with it is often much harder to reason about when you bolt it on later.

paulryanrogers 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Major databases now ship effective HA tooling

Which ones? PostgreSQL doesn't have HA in core.

calvinmorrison 3 hours ago | parent [-]

MySQL 8, but upon review that was 2018. 5.7 had some but it's certainly improved overall since then as well

pixl97 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Since Nov 30, 2022 BC everything has become… more complex.

FTFY

Increasing complexity is the story of mankind. It's the story of civilization.

Someone from 20,000 BC would wander around the earth trying to find food, trying not to freeze, and trying not to get eaten. Someone from 5,000 BC would be trying to grow food, hoping it rains, and hoping disease didn't wipe out the village. The second one increases the complexity from all the systems required to manage people and keep the land growing. Today the vast majority of people on earth don't grow their own food at all, and instead are busy in some way managing the complexity of a large society.

Someone from 1970-80 would think our software from pre-llm days was vastly more complex. They'd just code directly to the hardware with no abstraction layer. Now almost no one does that. We abstracted the hardware away in most cases. With cryptography libraries for the vast majority of people it's complexity is abstracted away and mostly people are told "don't try to write your own crypto because you will fuck it up".

The question now becomes, how quickly will LLMs be able to coordinate their understanding of the system they are changing?

qsera 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>LLMs be able to coordinate their understanding

I think the next time I see "LLMs" and "Understanding" in the same sentence, I am going to lose it....

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

>I am going to lose it

Then I think you should check in with your favorite mental health provider before you become a danger to yourself or others.

Simply put LLMs do understand some things within their crystalized intelligence. Your anthropocentric mind may not accept this, but one day it will. As LLMs have a very short context window in relation to their stored knowledge they have very limited plastic intelligence to change their minds or adapt. All of which is flushed away at the end of a session. It would be like living without the ability to turn your short term memory into new long term memories.

I would gladly use another word for what LLMs can do, but the world at large has not adopted any. The definitions we use around intelligence, comprehension, understanding, consciousness, and sapitence have already been failing us for some time before LLMs as our scientific understanding of biology has increased over the decades as it is. I am one for more exacting definitions when they exist, but humans seem to barely understand the inner workings of our own minds, in large such words escape us.

irishcoffee an hour ago | parent [-]

I'll meet you in the middle: an LLM "understands" words in the same way a toddler understands the phrases they say. "My want cookie!" The toddler has zero comprehension of what any of those words mean, but they know that saying them in that order might result in something desirable.

An LLM has zero understanding of "my", "want", or "cookie" because an LLM has no id/ego, has never felt desire, and has never eaten a cookie.

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I believe you've made a category error in understanding, um, understanding. You've tied emotion into it. This to me are entirely different concepts where both happen to be wrapped up in meaty flesh that drives us humans. Now, these concepts are very important in sociology and human understanding of how we behave, but they also may have zero importance for the domain that encompases all understanding.

HN would commonly recommend reading the book Blindsight here.

Moreso, all you've done is recreate the Searle Chinese Room thought experiment which gets bounced around with no means of deciding if it reflects reality or not.

CamperBob2 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I'll meet you in the middle: an LLM "understands" words in the same way a toddler understands the phrases they say.

How'd your toddler do at IMO last year?

a2dam an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You should be less upset over semantics that everyone else has usefully settled on. LLMs understand things fine.

ButlerianJihad 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> IBM has entered the chat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)