| ▲ | afavour 2 hours ago |
| It’s a one year moratorium. I don’t see a problem with this. A lot of voters are concerned about the impacts data centers will have, those concerns are not entirely unwarranted. We don’t actually have to be moving at breakneck speeds, the AI companies just want you to think we do. A pause to investigate seems warranted. |
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| ▲ | pj_mukh an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Blocking is easy, UN-blocking is hard (see: zoning and housing). There are no objective concerns to be met, and there will never be. I would bet a lot of money the moratorium is indefinitely extended every year. Always thought letting populism define a "slow-down" was silly, its a moratorium and a permanent veto everyone is looking for. It's fine, the data centers will be built elsewhere in more politically impoverished states, New York and especially NYC will still reap the benefits and offload solving the gnarly energy problems to someone else. Federalism working? |
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| ▲ | afavour an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > There are no objective concerns to be met Are you sure? Most of the objections I've seen center around environmental impact and effect on residential energy pricing in the surrounding area. Both of these seem to be to be objectively measurable. > the data centers will be built elsewhere in more politically impoverished states What does "politically impoverished" mean? I'd say more "politically permissive" states would make more sense here. Red states are not impoverished of politics, they just have different politics. | | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | "environmental impact and effect on residential energy pricing" Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point. And specifically the bill doesn't use any automatic re-enablement criteria, so data centers are basically dead in the state. Realistically, this is a canard, AI scares people and environmental impact is a lever to use to stop it. Ask yourself this: if this was a new Ford plant (dirtier, also uses a lot of energy), would we be having this conversation? I actually do mean politically impoverished. Banning Data centers is a horsehoe populism issue, the right wing loves it too. The data center builders will just have to find municipalities with less people and/or a less engaged political atmosphere aka politically impoverished. They mostly already have. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah - there seem to be a lot of pretenses which don't actually justify banning a particular industry. If environmental concerns were the real issue, we'd be talking about how to tweak those regulations. If power distribution was the real issue, we'd be talking about the economics of power companies and their infrastructure upgrades. It's strange how we're suddenly talking about things like illegal concrete dumping, as if it was somehow specific to datacenters, and not 99% of buildings built in the past century. |
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| ▲ | cucumber3732842 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Exactly. Wall Street is gonna finance these projects and make their cut wherever the projects ultimately are. NY state is simply ensuring that no concrete batch plant in Oneonta accidentally gets rich along the way too, | | |
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| ▲ | UncleOxidant an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To some extent you wonder if this "tapping the brakes" might be saving some companies from themselves. It's likely we're in the overinvestment phase of this technological cycle and that's usually followed by the bust phase where a lot of companies with a lot of debt go under. See The Panic of 1873 and the overbuilding of railroads (and huge debt accumulation) that led to that. |
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| ▲ | cmiles8 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly. Towns are also increasingly nervous that when the bottom drops out of the AI bubble they’ll be left with abandoned half-built data centers blighting their communities. It’s a serious concern that looks increasingly plausible. The bond market for financing buildouts is looking shaky and even Amazon struggled there in its last go at loaning money to fuel the buildout. That doesn’t bode well for others. |
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| ▲ | joering2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > We don’t actually have to be moving at breakneck speeds According to one Canadian, er sorry, a UE citizen, er sorry, an Irishman named Kevin O'Leary, who is seeing Chinese spys everywhere, we actually do need to move with breakneck speed, because otherwise the quality of American lives will be forever gone. Or at least infuse of naive VC money flowing into his pockets will be gone. |
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| ▲ | thinkingtoilet 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Let's be honest. There is a way to safely build data centers. Sensible laws could be made for them to build enough solar so they can power themselves or they are responsible for the cost of increasing capacity. Things like environmental impact and pollution need to be taken into account. However, since this is America, that won't happen. So companies will build these data centers in red states with little to no regulation and those people will pay for the increase in power capacity, the environmental and public health damages, etc... |
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| ▲ | newaccountman2 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > So companies will build these data centers in red states with little to no regulation and those people will pay for the increase in power capacity, the environmental and public health damages, etc... Good. People in red state have been voting to shit on the environment for longer than I have been alive, and they can have all the data centers. | | |
| ▲ | afavour an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > People in red state have been voting to shit on the environment for longer than I have been alive, Red states still have a significant population that don't vote Republican and they're more often than not the ones who bear the brunt of negatives like data center construction. | | | |
| ▲ | buellerbueller an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I live in a red state; my electricity bill went up 40% (flat rate annual billing), but my consumption only went up 10%. Local newspaper reports that this is because of data centers. I typically don't vote for Republicans, and I typically do vote for environmental protection. However, my state is heavily gerrymandered by the Republican supermajority here. So, I don't really have a choice. Also, go fuck yourself for being so glib about an entire state's population and wishing them ill. | | |
| ▲ | richwater an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Grid upgrades would have to happen no matter what. Data centers are just the catalyst and boogeyman at the moment. This utopia that everyone has about electric cars will never come to fruition without grid upgrades. This country has systematically underinvested and underdeveloped the electric grid for 50 years and now we are paying the price. It is a government failing. | |
| ▲ | nekusar 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The real question is "why do rates go up with a data center?" That answer is interesting. Its cause in most states, if a company formally requests a power hookup, the power company MUST comply. Thus entails in upgrading substations, transformers, supply lines, etc. And all those upgrades are borne by the citizens in that region. That's why you bill goes up, cause datacenter upgrades dump on the public their externalities. In some states like Indiana, the governor is already talking about changing that law requiring data centers to pay for upgrades. | | |
| ▲ | coryrc 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Every place I'm familiar with has demand charges on large-scale users that is supposed to pay for that equipment. The real problem is boomers have stopped allowing things to be built efficiently, so supply is limited, had been limited for decades, and demand still grows, so prices spike disproportionally with demand increases. Additionally we subsidize wind and solar heavily, but the fixed costs of large plants don't drop, so we end up spending for our power twice and for natural gas plants to replace coal, because that's the only solution we will do to keep power during the winter in Northern states. |
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| ▲ | newaccountman2 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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