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Backtrack-Free Cursive(mmapped.blog)
121 points by dmit 6 hours ago | 57 comments
JoshTriplett 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is the kind of thing that makes cursive painful to read. The `i` and `j` in this script are harder to quickly lex, and the `t` (especially in the `tt` ligature) with the added loop flourish diverges sufficiently from a standard `t` to make it hard to decipher in running text.

In text, as in code, I prefer to optimize for easy reading rather than faster writing.

richrichardsson 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

I read the backtrack free "pretty" as "pretly" at first; it adds cognitive load to understand it as intended.

vanderZwan 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Huh, I just indirectly learned from this article that the way I write a lower-case "t" in cursive is a Dutch way of doing so (edit: sollniss' comment implies it was a common style in Germany too). A quick search suggests it has been replaced with an English style of "t" in the last decades too.

I wonder if that makes my handwriting harder to read for anyone who isn't Dutch and over 40 years old.

Anyway, just bringing it up because you don't need to lift up your pen to write that kind of "t".

Search for "koordschrift" on https://primarium.info/countries/the-netherlands/ to find the illustration showing how I was taught to write it in the late 80s. It's the letter vaguely shaped like a pine tree.

aitchnyu 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Also the x thing is common knowledge in India, and maybe most countries with Independence days. I switched to backtrack though.

seszett 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I've learned to write x the way this post says (two mirrored c's) but I don't understand what you mean by "independence days". We don't have one in France anyway.

stalinlover1312 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"Countries with independence days" aka former colonies.

seszett 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Well I understood that much, but I'm not sure what link it could have with the shape of the x, especially since the English don't do it the same way as India.

demetrius 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like writing in cursive, but I don’t see backtracking as a problem. I backtrack quite a lot in Cyrillic, even in Russian, e.g. I always underline ш and write a line over т (which looks like m) to distinguish them (otherwise they look quite similar, see the famous example лишили лилии — you might want to google it if you haven’t seen it yet). I also normally write д as ∂, which breaks the flow.

Belarusian Cyrillic requires more backtracking: we have і, ў, obligatory ё, apostrophes. Never saw it as a problem.

usrnm 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> I always underline ш and write a line over т

Interesting. I think this style completely died out in Russia, I wasn't taught it and never really seen it outside of some old letters and documents. Interesting to hear it survived in Belarus

ubermonkey a few seconds ago | parent | prev [-]

>I always underline ш and write a line over т (which looks like m) to distinguish them

Having studied Russian in college, I assumed that all Cyrillic script included a line over the т, because otherwise readability goes to hell. Is my impression here based on (a) an opinion of my Russian prof expressed as a universal rule or (b) a thing that's universal in Russian specifically, but not Belarusian Cyrillic or other similar contexts, or... something else?

I'm inferring from your post that you are a native user of Cyrillic who has also learned English. I'm the reverse (well, at least I took Russian in college; I was never fluent then and remember almost nothing now). Something interesting happened to my cohort of Russian learners back then, and I wonder if it's common for folks going the other way.

After we got comfortable with writing Russian in cursive, we found that Cyrillic letters worked their way into our English script. Often, we wouldn't even notice, even when reviewing our notes later. I discovered I'd done this when I loaned some political science notes to a friend, and he couldn't read them because I'd unconsciously mixed Cyrillic and English script. I could read them fine, and so could my Russian-class friends.

We mentioned this to our Russian prof, and he laughed and said it happened to people every year, but he could never figure out who would be prone to it. Sometimes it was top students; sometimes it was people who were struggling.

(It was in this era that I ended up pretty much abandoning cursive, because Cyrillic never crept into my printed handwriting. 35 years later, my cursive is abysmal.)

Did you end up mixing script in your native handwriting inadvertently?

gumby 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am not sure what country the author is in, because when I learned to write English in school (decades ago, and it was the language of instruction) very few letters required backtrack, pretty much only ‘i’ and ‘j’. I just looked at an image of the US Declaration of Independence and the same is true (the ‘t’ has a wiggle in the middle).

Other languages are similar: for German if you look at either Kurrent or Sütterlin really only i gets special treatment. The umlauts are given as two dots in examples, but when i read letters and other informal documents they usually end up being a bar.

I like the connected dot for i and j! Clever, and i will try to adopt it. Most of my handwritten writing these days is for myself.

andreyvit 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wondering how many people are like me and hate writing in cursive.

I stopped using it right after graduating high school (where it was required), never used in drafts after elementary school, and only ever used normal print letters in the university (and also included TeX commands because I was typesetting lecture notes later and was figuring out the optimal command set on the fly).

gumby 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

I’m surprised, as the whole points of it are speed and duration (less cramping, less energy when moving the wrist). Discrete lettering is simply slower because it requires more motion.

kqr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For anyone interested in optimising this further, orthographic (letter-based) cursive shorthand systems are the answer. I personally only know part of the Melin system[1], but there are variants designed for English as the primary language too. (Melin is of course perfectly usable with English also.)

The flow of a cursive shorthand system is unmatched by anything else. I highly recommend learning enougnh to experience it.

(The drawback with more phonetic systems like Gregg is that one has to learn entirely new ways of spelling words. But normal English spelling is so complicated that tradeoff can be worth it for heavy usage. Orthographic systems often also contain phonetic components, but they tend to be optional extensions that improve efficiency, rather than required like with purely phonetic systems.)

[1]: http://melinsstenografi.nu/image/sti-ukast.png

golem14 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What a rabbithole ;) TIL about "Stiefography". I wonder how useful this is. I remember math lectures - typically, our prof used the white^H^H^H^H^Hchalkboard, so I could just write down things fast enough.

There is evidence that typing is actively bad for memory rentention compared to writing things down with a pen. I wonder where Stenography falls in this continuum.

kqr 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

Depends on how it is used! Recording speech nearly verbatim is bad for retention; summarising in own words along the way is good for retention.

Longhand forces summarisation, but it's still possible with shorthand.

Twey 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The drawback with more phonetic systems like Gregg is that one has to learn entirely new ways of spelling words.

The point of the phonetic systems is that you don't have to ‘spell’ words at all: what you say is what you write.

(Then there are briefs, of course, but those are for additional benefit.)

weinzierl 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I really like the result. Especially the i and j with the connected dot. I expected them to look off but they really integrate nicely.

That being said I don't think it is about Cyrillic vs Latin but more about traditional cursive vs modern.

The traditional Latin cursives were all pretty much optimized to be written in one running flow. Kurrent and cursive all come from Latin currere which means running.

Admittedly none of them go as far as connecting the i and j dots but otherwise they are pretty much completely connected. But then again I also never seen anyone writing a word and doing the dots afterwards. With traditional cursive you do your upstroke, lift the pen, place the dot (or short short stroke), reverse and do the downstroke. Lifting the pen yes, backtracking no.

With the connected dots OP's Backtrack-Free Cursive still wins here and I really like that because someone found an optimization to something that already has been optimized for centuries.

Laurel1234 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> With traditional cursive you do your upstroke, lift the pen, place the dot (or short short stroke), reverse and do the downstroke.

I do it like this, backtracking to add a dot doesn't seem so bad when you're lifting the pen anyways and it doesn't break the flow.

It's been a minute since I've had to write very quickly, but I'd imagine if necessary this step can be skipped. Would have to try it out.

golem14 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You may want to look into Sütterlin script. It's a bit harder to learn than standard cursive, but it's very pretty, and a level-0 encryption since few people can read it nowadays.

eru 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Eve can probably just take a picture and ask her AI assistant to read your Sütterlin?

sollniss 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The t I've learned in school in the 90s is a single stroke.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulausgangsschrift

vanderZwan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hey, that's the same one I was taught in the Netherlands in the late 80s! It seems to have been replaced with an English-style in recent decades though, is that the case in Germany as well?

tomtomtom777 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes. This seems mostly the same for lower-case, except we made a lower loop on the f as well making at one stroke.

Also, our capitals were a bit more complicated, such as having 3 loops in the H.

vanderZwan 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's fascinating how similar-yet-subtly-different the cursive writing is across Europe. I wonder if you could map them into something similar to language families (or type traditions, I suppose). Would there be any "language gradient" equivalents for cursive writing across the continent? Well, before the industrial revolution I guess, I'd expect that after that you'd see more singular influences of designers backed by the state pushing for standardization of education.

sollniss 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

According to the wiki, the Schulausgangsschrift is mandatory in 5 states and optional in 4 states (out of 16) (probably on a school/teacher level). So it still seems to be taught in some places.

vanderZwan 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

After searching a bit more I discovered the situation is similar in the Netherlands too: schools can choose between the two styles (or more like three publishers each with their own styles, really).

hrydgard 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Got taught this one in Sweden in the early 90s. Not too surprising though, as much of the Swedish school system used to be modeled on DDR...

alvsilvao an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An italian influencer started speaking in italics/cursive. It's a silly thing, but the thought of pronouncing words differently because they are on bold or italics is interesting

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WLzDcJBfLOk

ahazred8ta an hour ago | parent [-]

Victor Borge pronounced his punctuation marks. O:-) https://duckduckgo.com/?q=victor+borge+punctuation&ia=videos...

voidUpdate 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You only need 1 backtrack if you do the dots and crosses after you've written the word

hk__2 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That’s addresses in the blog post:

> One way to remove backtracking is to lift the pen immediately instead of waiting until the end of the word, as if doing italic calligraphy. Pen lifts alleviate the mental queue problem and give a chance to readjust the palm, but they break the writing flow.

Cockbrand 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is how I learned cursive in school, and it never occurred to me that this may interrupt my writing flow. I agree that doing the backtracks after writing the entire word would add to my mental load, but that's probably because I'm not used to that.

So generally, I'd say that the mental load is basically a matter of how one learned cursive in the first place. Though I agree that the mostly backtrack-free Cyrillic cursive looks more elegant.

Would be interesting to learn about the perspective of people who learned Chinese or Japanese as their first script.

thaumasiotes 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Cursive isn't seen as being fancier than the reference form of a character in China. It's something you do to make writing easier.

I've gotten comments about how neat my Chinese writing is from people surprised that I don't use handwriting. There's a simple reason for that: I've never learned how to do Chinese handwriting.

rahimnathwani 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Right, but multiply that by half the total number of words, and it's a lot.

Laurel1234 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Super interesting article.

I don't cross ts either, I tested out on a piece of paper and what I do is a vertical (slightly curved) stroke, loop to the left, cross the stroke and then a downwards stroke.

I tried the jitter example and instinctively I dotted the j but not the i for some reason. Would love to see some research on this.

I really miss cursive honestly, at least for me I feel a much closer connection to the writing than when typing.

shakow 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Only й and э require two strokes

Wouldn't the ф as well?

> [for the x], I draw two mirrored c’s

Isn't that what everyone is doing, or are we Frenchmen the exception?

For reference if the author reads this, we write the latin x exactly like the cyrillic х, i.e. reverse c, bottom-left to top-right diagonal, normal c.

theresistor 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Isn't that what everyone is doing, or are we Frenchmen the exception? > For reference if the author reads this, we write the latin x exactly like the cyrillic х, i.e. reverse c, bottom-left to top-right diagonal, normal c.

I was taught script in the US and Italy as a child, and never learned it like this.

shakow 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How do you write it; two separate diagonal bars like described in the article? In this case, how do you “flow” it within a word?

brainwad 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I write it with a descending curve, then go back and cross it with an ascending diagonal line when crossing t's / dotting i's/j's. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel3GtSOzow. I think that's pretty standard in English cursives.

shakow 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Interesting; French standard “x” is this one. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NCr5KgIXd2Q

phoronixrly 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Wouldn't the ф as well?

Not if you write it as qo for lower case and oJo for capital.

shakow 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh nice, I was taught to write it first a “barless small-case f”, then an “infinite” in the middle.

asimovDev 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have had similar thoughts recently when attending language courses where I write a lot of notes by hand. This problem is exacerbated by umlauts. If the language doesn't have letters like ō (are there any? i only see this letter to represent a sound, never in a word), then the two dots can be replaced with a line and so, I guess, the lowercase T technique from the blog post could be adapted to it. I think I know what I am gonna do after work today

brainwad 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are such: Macrons are required in the Māori language, and probably other Polynesian languages written with Latin script.

eru 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In German the Umlaut started as a quicker way to write ae, oe and ue. Perhaps develop your ideas from there?

dnpls 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All images on the site appear broken to me, using Chrome on Mac. Is it a site-issue or a me-issue?

konart 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm on Vivaldi on mac and images are fine here. So... maybe an extension or something else?

turtleyacht 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Usually writing small, in all-caps, except code: in lowercase, and the "t" and "i" retain their lower curve. Cursive is difficult; easy to write, but (later) hard to read.

Can see how penmanship there would be appreciated.

thaumasiotes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Single-stroke letter t often appears on logos.

Somehow, this caption appears to the right of two logos which clearly require two strokes for their ts. What happened?

chrisjj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> ... in Russian. Only й (short i) and э (pronounced like e in end) require two strokes.

Plus some uppercase e.g. A, B, H, right?

zczc 3 hours ago | parent [-]

In school-taught cursive, the uppercase A is written with a single stroke, but the upper element in Б, Г, Т and others need a separate stroke. The full alphabet sheet: https://upload-995750d0fd20690d889c7a976af524b6.hb.bizmrg.co...

thaumasiotes 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Do you start with the top stroke so that the bottom stroke can continue into the rest of the word, or do you start with the bottom stroke and handle the top later?

a115ltd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is unrelated to the main thesis of the article, but worth pointing out as too many people equate the Cyrillic script with Russian language.

The Cyrillic script was invented in Bulgaria (during the First Bulgarian Empire), and was used to write Bulgarian language, creating a huge literary corpus, long before it began spreading to Kievan Rus. The Russian language itself comes from Old Bulgarian / Old Church Slavonic, as does Serbian and other "Slavic" languages.

And no, Bulgaria was never part of Russia nor the Soviet Union.

vova_hn2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The Russian language itself comes from Old Bulgarian / Old Church Slavonic, as does Serbian and other "Slavic" languages.

Also, Bulgaria used to own all the land in the world, but because Bulgarians are very kind people, they gave some of it to other nations so that they have a place to live too. Thank you, Bulgarians!

usrnm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The Russian language itself comes from Old Bulgarian / Old Church Slavonic, as does Serbian and other "Slavic" languages.

That's some interesting nationalistic propaganda, never heard that one before

suddenlybananas 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Church Slavonic is a South Slavic language and so is a cousin of East Slavic language like Russian or Ukrainian. Russian borrowed a lot from Old Church Slavonic but doesn't descend from it. It's like the influence of Latin or Norman French on English.