Part of the problem is that the difficulty curve becomes, like, superexponential if you try to do the actual math. Fairly elementary atoms require the full theory of quantum mechanics to justify rigorously, and anything more complicated than that requires huge bodies of specialist knowledge on approximation schemes (I assume; I haven't studied them, but given that helium already requires approximations I'm assuming the trend continues..)

Of course, they could still do a much better job useful providing pointers into this knowledge, instead of just handwaving over it and insisting on rote memorization.

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DiscourseFan 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But oftentimes theoretical chemistry is not as important as what we get out of experiments because unlike physics, which attempts to derive general laws of nature, chemistry has to deal with the nitty gritty of the diversity of actual miscroscopic interactions of things. Any theory that is not entirely rigorous or even has slight room for an exception will be ignored by necessity, and physics is chock full of such examples. Biology is in a certain sense better (since it deals with larger things) and in a certain sense worse (as it relies on dogma and mysticism, at its essence, to explain the systems of life), and still nobody has gone beyond Aristotle and Kant in giving anything close to a rigorous definition of life as such.

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gmueckl 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Where is physics chock full pf exceptions?

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isomorphic_duck 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

how does biology depend on "dogma and mysticism"? I am really curious - a Google search yielded nothing much relevant.

	▲	nemothekid 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I think he's being a little facetious - what he probably means is that if you attempt to get any true scientific rigor of that is going on in biological or chemical systems you end up facing the limits of physics in being able to explain what is going on. So rather and try to have scientific rigor, you just accept things the way they are and memorize the outputs and if anyone asks "why is it like that", your answers are either: * Because God said so * Find out yourself and get a nobel prize Either way, even if you don't know what the answers are, you can still do serious work at a higher level of abstraction.
	▲	AngryData 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I would think just because everything is so cumulatively complicated and interconnected that if you tried to trace a line through a complex biological processes and explain it all you will end up with 1,000 PhD thesis topics to figure out and thousands more you just hadn't noticed yet. And at the end of the day none of that might be all that useful for describing the larger process at work. So at some point when someone ask "Why does X do Y" you gotta just settle on "because that's the way it is" and move on.

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breezybottom 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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rnikander an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All this computing power. Can we even simulate a water molecule yet from scratch with QM?

	▲	smj-edison 27 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Depends what level of accuracy you want. I just started in a computational chemistry lab so I'll probably get some details wrong, but for small systems, you can use a method called CCSD(T) for up to ~20 atoms, but it scales O(N^7). I've been mainly using DFT for the systems I've been simulating, which scales O(N^3). I've been running a system with about 50 atoms with a decent basis set (how the orbitals are modelled), and it takes about 30 minutes for each optimization step with 24 cores and 48 GB of RAM. DFT works in many cases, but in some cases it doesn't estimate the energy right, due to how it bypasses some correlation calculations. Bonds are extremely sensitive to energy calculations, so you need to get super close to the actual energy in order to get useful results. Anyways, someone with more experience here could probably add more, but that's what I've picked up so far.

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wombatpm an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Physical Chemistry (I think it was Chem 361 at UofI) took most of the semester to get to the point where we could derive the shape of the hydrogen orbitals. Probably the best lecture of that class.

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chanakya 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As you move up levels starting from physics (eg. physics-> chemistry-> biochemistry-> biology), each layer has several "laws" which are generally pretty established, but a causal connection between the layers is hard to provide satisfactorily. And that is how I think it'll always be, else we'll be expecting to explain Shakespeare's plays using physics.

Also, this is where Rutherford's "all science is either physics or stamp collecting" holds a lot of water. As you move up the science layers, the laws themselves become less mathematically rigid until by the time you get to the social sciences, explanations are all hand-waving, and all "laws" are statistical at best and empirical.