| ▲ | cynicalsecurity 7 hours ago |
| To everyone who wants to dismantle the EU: this is not the solution. Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. The UK left the EU and implemented its own version of chat control - Online Safety Act - without any transparency or real opposition. The right solution is the political fight. Europe is our home. We must keep it in good shape by getting rid of anything that makes it worse - like Chat Control. |
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| ▲ | nickslaughter02 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| No, it has to be burned down. The people in charge will never allow real changes. |
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| ▲ | Insimwytim 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house
I'm not an expert, but isn't "your own house" should rather be your country in this analogy? It ought to be still there without some bureaucratic institution on top of it. |
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| ▲ | patcon 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just think "neighborhood", no? This seems like splitting hairs... And to what end? to take a shot at EU supra-national structure? ("What, you don't ally to your country?" kinda shade.) -- Canadian | | | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe “your own city” would be a more precise metaphor than “your own house”. Your country is your house, but the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. The concept of a modern nation is also relatively new. It emerged as an identity for groups of people who were no longer defined mainly by the monarchs ruling over them. That identity replaced the king as the symbol of belonging. But now nationalism is often doing the opposite. Instead of freeing people from old power structures, it is holding Europe back. So yes, maybe it is not literally “your house”, but the point still stands. Burning down the city around your house is not exactly a smart move either. | | |
| ▲ | logicchains 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | >the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined. | | |
| ▲ | benjiro29 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined. Very sure that when the EU was still in its infancy, we had only "west Europe" in arms, vs a USSR (aka all the eastern states and Russia). Now all those states are part of NATO and the EU. Instead of the border to the closest hostile nation (Russia) being barely 100km from here, its now over 1200km to the first contact point. That same Russia can barely deal with a Ukraine, that has some spare change backing from the EU. How is again at a war economy? Ukraine, sure, Russia, sure, EU ... nowp. We now have Northern members that used to be neutral or not part of NATO, that are now part of it. I feel like people love to misrepresent a lot of history. We have never been in a better position as a EU, vs what we used to be 40, 80, 100 years ago. Yea, we have a lot of buildup to do again, but lets be honest, i rather see buildup now with modern kit for the modern battles, then relying on outdated 1990's doctrine and weapons. And even that is still a slow process with transitioning to the new reality of drones, drones and drones. Do not forget that 90% of the kills are now by drones. People love to parrot those US talking point that often have no sense of history and our current EU reality in regards to security. While i admit, that we are still too reliant on US kit, even that is slowly changing. The EU moves slowly but it moves. Better then being some nations that are stuck in Imperialistic ways of thinking, like Russia. |
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| ▲ | 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | polytely 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Of course Americans want us to dismantle the EU, we are even weaker against US influence without it. |
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| ▲ | janpmz 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Isn't the EU rather like a single point of failure? | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, every country remains sovereign. Hungary's previous regime ignored the EU for over a decade. Many countries are instituting border controls again despite the Schengen agreement. |
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| ▲ | hsuduebc2 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly. This is ridiculous behavior. Simple solutions for complex problems are usually the wrong ones. One griefer which promised prosperit fueled Brexit, which caused Britain visible stagnation and now he is a candidate for MP promising to fixing it all yet again. I need to repeat, that Simple solutions for complex problems usually do not work. |
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| ▲ | retinaros 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the eu has always been an instrument of american imperialism. leader like ursula was casted away of german politics for corruption and most of the other big names had ties to american companies like goldman sachs or’other financial institution. the eu is a prison for all of us. for a moment germany thought they could use it as an instrument to win and crush its biggest competitors (france and uk) but now they dont have an energy sector (lost thanks to their dear american friend bombing nordstream and foreign countries financing an anti nuclear narrative) and as such they now also lost the heart of their economy : their industry. the final nail in the coffin is spain opening the gates to millions of mens from less developed countries while major european economies have record youth unemployment. its a crime against what was not so long ago some of the greatest nations on earth. now were as citizen are living under a distopia of urss with the worst of capitalism combined with the worst of communism. mass surveillance, removal of all personal freedom (freedom of speech, right to own property and cars, right to inherit, right to have a nation for our people, harshnpunishment for any contestation’up to jail timz for memes while at the same time very lenient justice toward murderers, rapists and other criminals.) we gave away our right to exist and be nations and we did that without even a fight |
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| ▲ | iknowstuff 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | you seem to be from Russia. You do realize it's not in the EU right? | | |
| ▲ | retinaros 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | russia was indeed the ones who pushed germany to be reliant on their energy instead of going for nuclear. they funded green party to do that. and germany on their side then voted laws and pushed eu to remove nuclear from green energies list so that france wouldnt have an edge against germany shooting themselves in the foot |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. I don't like this comparison at all. Europe, the land that housed, fed and scarified my ancestors, is my house, not this supra-governmental corrupt bureaucratic institution called the EU that does not represent me nor speak in my name. Empires, monarchies, governments and all such man-made institutions like the EU get torn down all time, when they become too bloated, incompetent, corrupt and cronyistic and lose legitimacy in the eyes of the people. See all human history. Forests go through prescribed burns in order to be saved, for their own good, and so must political institutions. And when the rot is too big, it can't simply be "patched" anymore, it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch with fresh new people, which in turn will get corrupted over time and get torn down, and so on, rinse and repeat because that's human nature. Ironically, the EU has achieved its goal of uniting all Europeans, as in they're all now united via hating what the EU has become and what it's doing. |
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| ▲ | cassepipe 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's stop the blut and soil BS right here. I am all for european panationalism but don't pretend that Europe is "your house" where "your ancestors" were. You come from a very specific culture inside it which has its own specific language and traditions and that has spent most its history warring with its neighbours, sometimes people in the next village speaking a different version of your lanuage. My ancestors and your ancestor probably scarified each other, the land didn't Turns out unifying a lot of different countries that have different languages and interest is a hard problem and in order to satisfy everyone a little bureaucracy is the price to pay. You may find it too bloated, too slow or even too corrupt but burning it to the ground is a lunacy for people who entertain clean slate delusions: Whenever it happens, it is a catastrophy for everyone but a few opportunists. Europe is imperfect but it has rejected the idea of war outside of itself. I don't think any European citizen would go to war with their neighbour. Just that is an amazing achievement. Now it can stay an economic union and big powers can pick and choose how to manipulate each one of us for their own purposes or it can strive to be a political union and have a standing on the international stage. We're not there yet but we will, eventually, we just need to hang tight. Things take time. | | |
| ▲ | logicchains 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Europe is imperfect but it has rejected the idea of war outside of itself. I don't think any European citizen would go to war with their neighbour. Just that is an amazing achievement. Not really. South American countries don't go to war with each other and they don't have a union. Nor do central American countries. | | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Let's stop the blut and soil BS right here Would you also tell that to native American Indians? Or to the Japanese? Or to the Indians? It's no BS unless you've been brainwashed and make massive efforts to ignore reality. Blood based belonging to a place is hardwired in every culture and society on the planet, from Asia to the Americas. NA, UK, AU, NZ, and the EU just have added a lot of PR paint on top to pretend it doesn't exist in their liberal societies, but it does, except it's much more under the table and subversive. >a little bureaucracy is the price to pay. Taking away people's privacy and freedom of speech is a little more problematic than just "a little bureaucracy". >Europe is imperfect but it has rejected the idea of war outside of itself. I don't think any European citizen would go to war with their neighbour. Just that is an amazing achievement. That WAS an achievement in the past, but if you dissolve the EU institution tomorrow, no former EU member state will suddenly got to war with their neighbour just because the EU doesn't exist anymore. So the myth that the EU is somehow preventing war in EU today is bogus. That was history, this is today. | | |
| ▲ | cassepipe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Would you also tell that to native American Indians? Or to the Japanese? Or to the Indians? If they were saying to me what you wrote that $big_chunk_of_land "is the land that housed, fed and scarified my ancestors, is my house, not this supra-governmental corrupt bureaucratic institution called" $state_institution, I would laugh them off, yes | |
| ▲ | cassepipe 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Taking away people's privacy and freedom of speech is a little more problematic than just "a little bureaucracy" I mean yes but it is ultimately your framing. It's concerning and worth being fought against but no worse that what US was, is or has tried to do, and despite the corrupt buffoon at its head right now, it is not a dictatorship yet. What we need is a good balance of powers and well-designed institutions, and not as you suggested, to destroy it. > That WAS an achievement in the past, but if you dissolve the EU institution tomorrow, no former EU member state will suddenly got to war with their neighbour just because the EU doesn't exist anymore. So the myth that the EU is preventing war in EU is bogus. That was history, this is today. Fair enough but that does not warrant the use of the past, it IS an achievement.
Also, give it time and history will do its thing. Remove the EU and, sooner or later, war will come back. The same way that if you remove the counter-powers, tyranny will come back EDIT:
You added this part about in response to my blood and soil line afterwards: > It's no BS unless you've been brainwashed and make massive efforts to ignore reality. Blood based tribalism and ingroup preference is hardwired in every culture and society on the planet, from Asia to the Americas. NA, UK, AU, NZ, and the EU just have added a lot of PR paint on top to pretend it doesn't exist in their liberal societies, but it does except it's much more under the table and subversive. Interesting how people seem to think reality is on their side and people who think otherwise must have been brainwashed. Anyways, is it hardwired or is it "soft" wired ? Are we only responding to our wiring or did we manage to create cultures around it or are we condemned to an endless loop of prewired behaviours ? Sexual desire is also "hardwired" in us and yet we finally managed to no rape each other based on dominance hierarchies. Is that the kind of society you are looking forward to ? One based on some kind of supposedly natural order ? Yes tribalism does exist, we know what kind of world it produces. It's utter shit. Poverty and misery for everyone but the people at the top. I swear you people are so bored that you cannot appreciate the sheer amount of material wealth you are effing bathing in. You dream of an heroic past that never existed where you get to be the hero. Ha the times where being a man with no other skills than violence could get you riches ! Let's conveniently forget about most people, living under the boot in a life of injustice and life-threatening poverty. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >I mean yes QED. End of story. Rest is just meaningless ranting that doesn't disprove anything I said before. | | |
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| ▲ | vlian2088 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Let's stop the blut and soil BS do you feel the same way when Africans speak of Africa? | | |
| ▲ | cassepipe 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think less because I am not an african myself but yes, I guess it could ? Can you provide me with some example of something that you think I would not disapprove of and that amounts the exactly the same thing ? Or maybe can you try to defend the blood and soil rethoric (call it the way you want) instead of a drive-by comment ? | | |
| ▲ | vlian2088 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm just noticing that only European people seem to be disallowed from calling their land "their land" and outsiders "outsiders". it's "blut and soil", as if the men who fought Nazis fought Nazis for some high-minded ideals rather than their land and their people. | | |
| ▲ | cassepipe 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh, you're just noticing are you ?
Who are those people who are "disallowing" you from calling your land your land ? How do you handle living under such oppression ? Just come out of the woods will you It turns out people don't like to be invaded, yes, simple as. Of course you would very much like to convince everyone that immigration is just the same as an invasion and thus, the same way to deal with it is justified. So just say so instead of dancing around and posing as the victim. |
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| ▲ | hsuduebc2 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree on the base of the argument. EU after all was created because of one tragedy. I'm absolutely sure that there will be more gruesome wars on the continent and I even wouldn't rule out the collapse in the future because petty tribalism holding everything back as always. But this is the hatred you are talking about? https://www.politico.eu/article/europeans-embrace-eu-gloom-w... | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Eurobarometer by the EU shows Europeans love the EU" seems legit lol Probably because most Europeans are clueless and brainwashed by MSM pro-EU propaganda, and never hear about the nasty things the EU tries to do like chat control, age-ID, car surveillance, or taxing parcels. To most Europeans EU just means going to Spain on vacation and going to work in Germany for more money, anything else stupid the EU does never reaches them directly until much later when the second order effects hit but then it must be because the fault of Putin or Trump. Most Europeans are pretty detached from EU politics. If you ask them who their EU MEPs /representative are most have no clue without googling, they just know some of the ones in their own country, but EU politics might as well be on another planet. | | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >"Eurobarometer by the EU shows Europeans love the EU" seems legit lol Probably because most Europeans are clueless and brainwashed by MSM pro-EU propaganda, and never hear about the nasty things the EU tries to do like chat control, age-ID, car surveillance, or taxing parcels. So which is it? Are the stats fake, or are Europeans actually saying this because they are brainwashed? Because you are trying to have both. First, official EU polling is illegitimate propaganda. Then, in the next breath, you explain why Europeans really do support the EU. That means the poll is not fake. You just hate the answer. Every result you dislike is fake, and every person who disagrees with you is brainwashed. Very brave epistemology. | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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