| ▲ | wccrawford 3 hours ago |
| Alternatively, 98% is plenty. If your business plan requires you to capitalize on more than 98% of the market, it's already a failure. It'll never happen. As always, it's an "it depends" situation. If your userbase is largely luddites, then maybe you need to support 10+ year old browsers that can't be updated. Otherwise, you can probably just worry about people who are using computers new enough to actually update their browser once a year or better. The tradeoff is code complexity and engineering time, vs having a larger market. And that's going to be an individual situation for every company. |
|
| ▲ | dataviz1000 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Former chef here (2 Michelin starred restaurants). 5% is beyond plenty; it is awesome! > works for 98% of the population, that means that it won’t work for ~150 million people If I can only cook for 70 people a night, I most likely can't serve the ~150 million people who do not have access to modern browsers. And, those who do have access to those browsers and choose not use those browsers likely will not enjoy my food either. I don't need to make 8 billion people happy for my restaurant to survive. I only need to make ~1000 people happy who keep returning for anniversaries, birthdays, and the pure enjoyment of creativity with food. I was a yacht chef for years and only needed to make 10 people happy. The technique I used was everyone eats the same thing, crew and guests. Saving money doing my own shopping instead of relying on provisioning companies that would send me food not handled correctly, my monthly expense went from ~$30k to ~$10k when guests are on board a month -- food in St. Barts was flown in from France everyday and expensive, circa 2005, so I could afford to serve the chateaubriand, osso bucco, and everything else to the crew. Therefore, what I wanted to eat everyday which likely was balanced, had lots of fiber, and healthier choices was the thing that everyone ate everyday. People ask if the guests and owners would tell me what they want to eat everyday. The Mister was CEO of a fortune 500 company and when retired still chairman of the board. This guy was making billion dollar decisions everyday and the Mrs. was very busy also. The last thing they want to do is answer what is for dinner every night. They delegated the decision making to me. I always cooked what I wanted to eat and was always correct. It is impossible to make everyone happy. Don't try -- it will break you. |
| |
|
| ▲ | pavon 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That is neglecting network effects. Less than 10% of the US population is vegetarian, but if a restaurant doesn't have any vegetarian options they lose business not just from that 10% but from any party that has a single vegetarian. Likewise, if a website has any social network affect, disregarding a portion of the population will decrease use from a much larger percentage than those directly affected. Furthermore, even if your site functionality has no networking component itself, all business are subject to the network effects of word of mouth. People are much more likely to share negative experiences that positive ones, so if 1/50 of people find your site to be broken, then a considerable amount of feedback online will be negative and will harm your reputation for the entire market, not just that 2%. Finally, in business you have to work hard to win over even a small portion of your total addressable market. Artificially decreasing your TAM can be fine if it is an intentional strategic decision to focus on a specific market, but pointless to exclude people without good reason. Not having vegetarian options at BBQ restaurant in Texas is harmless - no one goes there for that, but if you are running a more general restaurant it would be foolish not to have a few vegetarian options. Excluding people because your web developers are too lazy to use approaches that have worked fine for the last 20 years and need to use the new shiny is even more foolish. |
|
| ▲ | hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah, when I read the article I thought "Great, more paternalistic advice that pretends we have infinite resources/time/money." Anyone who has ever done website or mobile development knows there is a huge array of browsers and platforms, and supporting the very long tail of configurations is sometimes nearly impossible, let alone almost never cost effective. When I last ran some web apps, we'd see substantial numbers of errors just due to f'd up (or sometimes outright malicious) browser plugins. I'm not checking every random configuration of browser plugins against my website to ensure they all work. Like you say, it really depends, which is why I hate blanket directives like the article gave. If suddenly 2% of people couldn't log into gmail, that would be a huge deal affecting 10s of millions of people. As the adage goes, "You're not Google", and for a lot of small e-commerce websites trying to fix someone on some decade+ old browser just doesn't make sense (and, as another comment mentioned, these users are often the least likely to convert in any case). |
| |
| ▲ | throwaway173738 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He wasn’t actually giving a blanket directive. The article was suggesting that you think about whether 98% is actually good in your use case by doing the math and thinking. | | |
| ▲ | Eridrus an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, but the guy writing the article seems to be bad at math and thinking. Can I imagine a venue kicking out 2% of their former clients on some criteria? Absolutely yes. Kicking out 2% of website visitors may still be totally reasonable if the cost to serve them is meaningful, or if they are less than 2% of revenue. His defense for 98% being bad is that some CSS thing people were arguing about only had 70% coverage on his website. Our b2b dashboard didn't support Safari for a while at all and it was entirely not an issue because everyone had a simple workaround to just use Chrome and the dashboard wasn't really the main product. | | |
| ▲ | alwa 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I’m familiar with some venues that only admit around 2% of those who seek to attend… as I recall they command something of a premium from those “lucky” enough to make it through the door… |
| |
| ▲ | hn_throwaway_99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Except there was 0 analysis of the cost/benefit of supporting the end of the long tail, instead it was just economics-free shaming. Of course, you want to see who those 2% of users actually are. But nowhere in this article did I find any advice I'd actually want to use in a really business scenario. | |
| ▲ | s3p 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean the name was "98% isn't much" and the article made it sound like 98% isn't good enough |
| |
| ▲ | ryandrake an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Respectfully: To me these just sound like excuses. I can write a web page that works correctly on all browsers. We all can. That web page won't do much of anything, but it's possible. So, there is a baseline "target subset of HTML/CSS" that gives you 100% coverage. From there, it's purely developer choice: When you add something, are you choosing technology that is widely available and supported, or are you choosing to throw 0.N% of users under the bus for some benefit (development speed/comfort)? Obviously, it's a trade-off, and no final product is going to work on 100% of configurations. All these choices deliberately made during development add up to the product you deliver at the end of the day. All I'm asking is that we recognize browser/platform incompatibility/inaccessibility as choices and not some inherent property of software. When a developer says "it's too expensive to develop this for a dozen configurations" that just means they have already chosen to make their applications inaccessible, and are justifying it after the fact. | | |
| ▲ | dfabulich 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The inherent property of software is that the only way to be sure your software works on a particular platform is to test on that platform. There is not a baseline target subset of HTML/CSS that reaches 100% coverage that can be statically verified. HTML tables usually work in old browsers, but there were subtle bugs in old versions of Internet Explorer, bugs that you're especially likely to hit if you're using tables for layout (because you can't use modern CSS layout features). The only way to be sure that you didn't trigger one of those subtle bugs is to test your web app on ancient browsers. The cost of reaching the last 0.N% of users rises with each platform you add to your test matrix. It costs money to test your web app on Internet Explorer. It costs even more money to fix bugs that only affect Internet Explorer. I think you can't deny that doing that work is expensive. The question then has to be whether that work will repay itself somehow. But the last 0.N% of users will only provide ~0.N% increases to your revenue. Unless your revenue is astronomical, you can't afford even one full-time engineer to test and fix bugs on 0.N% of browsers. | |
| ▲ | anoneng an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | This goes to show you’ve never been anywhere near the actual development cycle of a real-world front-end web application. “So, there is a baseline "target subset of HTML/CSS" that gives you 100% coverage.” Oh really? Which subset? Which “HTML/CSS?” And 100%? Absolutely laughable. | | |
| ▲ | drdeca 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Do you know any browsers which don’t support https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ (if you remove the google traffic tracking js that’s iirc tacked on at the end of the page (or maybe I’m thinking of better mfing website (which adds a tiny bit of css)? Idr.)) ? I get that asking a commercial website to be as basic/supported as that website is a big ask. I don’t think the other commenter was saying that such websites should reach 100%, only that they should start from there and sacrifice only as much as is necessary. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | mrhottakes 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Plenty for who/what? I think you've assumed a bunch of facts that aren't true for every situation. |
|
| ▲ | itake 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Unfortunately some business are critical where is not an option or very expensive for someone to not use it. For example, Uber, a Visa immigration website, low cost air carrier booking site, etc. |
| |
| ▲ | mmmattt 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah but as long as they’re not public services, the business can just decide to not serve these clients. There’s no recourse possible for these clients. | | | |
| ▲ | MichaelZuo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Generally most people would consider a viable option to exist even if it’s multiple times the cost… As long as it’s credibly offered without too many caveats. | |
| ▲ | igsomething 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | For public services you can tell people to use another device, or provide a way to schedule an appointment in-person that is accessible using old browsers. | | |
| ▲ | anoneng an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Seems like you’re getting hate but this is how the world works. Uber just has to support the devices that their market uses. And especially for visas the government is free to make the public bend to whatever arbitrary requirements they develop for using their byzantine systems. | |
| ▲ | account42 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You you can make a law that requires such businesses to use perfectly good technology standards that are widely supported instead of whatever EEE crap the latest Chrome comes with. | | |
| ▲ | abofh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I remember years ago when websites would have buttons "best viewed in Internet explorer 4.0". We're past those days, but only because it's implied "use chrome, maybe webkit, we didn't test on Firefox" | |
| ▲ | igsomething 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree, but one thing is to demand all your users to be on the latest Chrome, and another one is to support browsers that are no longer maintained and contain security issues (IE). If we discourage people from driving old insecure cars, we can also discourage people from using old insecure browsers. | | |
| ▲ | bee_rider an hour ago | parent [-] | | Ideally we could section off some minimal baseline functionality that could be implemented more securely than the whole modern stack. Just HTML and a little CSS or something. Then mandate that, at least, services provided by the state should be accessible in this baseline functionality mode. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | Tarq0n 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's a very mercenary attitude. If less than 2% of your (potential) users had a particular disability, would you implement accessibility features for them without being forced to? I'd argue that it's the right thing to do. Some restrictions like using an old browser may be more or less a choice, but it's still a much better look to be inclusive. |
|
| ▲ | SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Most managers I've had preached the "80/20" rule, so 80% was good enough. |
|
| ▲ | zero-sharp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like how you equate 10 year old browser users with luddites? |
| |
| ▲ | bradleybuda 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s very difficult for the average person to use a ten year old browser; in fact I’d offer that the only way to use a ten year old browser is to be an expert and do so intentionally. | | |
| ▲ | londons_explore 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. There are plenty of people still using windows 10 with updates turned off or wedged for whatever reason. These people just use the sites that work. They aren't computer experts, and might not even realise why half the internet doesn't work - they just think that's the way things are. | | |
| ▲ | Macha 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Eventually you are making things worse for your vast majority of users when you have to e.g. make them install a native app for a video call or use a TLS version that is broken to support those Gingerbread Android phones | |
| ▲ | ben_w 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | While I agree with your general gist and definitely your final paragraph, > There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. How many people have 10 year old phones? I've got an 8 year old iPhone XR which I keep around as a backup/travel device because it's not worth selling, and the battery is… not happy even in airplane mode. For me to have a 10 year old mobile browser, I'd have to have kept the iPhone SE 1 (or was it a 5c?) that I bought second hand in 2018, and not upgraded it since I bought it. I got rid of it because the battery wouldn't hold a charge for 10 minutes. | |
| ▲ | alternatex an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've a Xiaomi Mi 6 phone (2017 model) that I still use as a fridge-mounted shopping list and it's using the latest version of Chrome. I think it would be quite the stretch to find a user using a 10 year old browser. | |
| ▲ | lukasbm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I am an expert and half the internet does not work. That's just the way things are | |
| ▲ | zarzavat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's fine to support such configurations by accident, but you shouldn't try to support them intentionally. You will end up dropping support eventually regardless but the skeletons will live on in your codebase as tech debt. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. | |
| ▲ | mattmatheus 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not sure this is a realistic use case to try and support. A 10 year old android phone likely has a battery life measured in 10s of minutes, and really isn't something we need to worry about. | | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You get the guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $50 in most parts of the world. Its cheaper to do that every few years than buy a new phone, and I have several family members who refuse to upgrade on principle, because modern phones grew too large for their hands/pockets | | |
| ▲ | londons_explore 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Usually you get a guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $10. For $50 you can buy a whole new phone (refurb that is 4 yrs old from some other country) |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | compiler-guy 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I support a bevy of older people with older computers, senior-citizen types. Upgrades are expensive. Monetarily, but also in retraining. These folks don't want the latest UI, they want what is familiar, and retraining is super annoying. Computers that were EOL a few years ago, running ten-year-old browsers, are absolutely routine. | |
| ▲ | jollyllama 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's a choice by the people who make websites and browsers that forces the average person to buy a new computer. If we all cared about letting people use old computers, this wouldn't be the case. | | |
| ▲ | esrauch 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn't conflate old computers and old browsers. I still use an over 10 year old laptop and it still has a latest browser. | | |
| ▲ | anoneng an hour ago | parent [-] | | Right. That problem is bloat, not lack of legacy support. Adding (already bloated) legacy support to already bloated software just makes bloat worse. |
|
| |
| ▲ | mananaysiempre 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There’s also being poor, or working for an organization that’s poor. In both cases the obsolete(?) software might be various degrees of intentional, but the alternative is usually worse anyway. | |
| ▲ | intrasight 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I doubt that for the hackernews audience that the age of the browsers is an issue. I would say in practice that 90% is nowhere near what is achieved - that it's closer to 90% and amongst the hackernews audience probably lucky if it gets to 50% because of our use of anti-tracking and ad blockers. | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Respectfully, you may live in a bubble of fairly tech-savvy folks. Most of my extended family run 10+ year old laptops as their daily drivers. Their phones are often on the second or third battery replacement. They don't install updates very often (if at all). For the most part they are still more proficient with tech than many of their peers. | |
| ▲ | troupo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or use a smart TV (most apps on TVs are web apps. Enjoy: https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications... |
| |
| ▲ | __alexs an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The same way people generally equate luddism with anything. By entirely misunderstanding what it was to make a point that sounds snappy without all of that boring understanding history stuff. | |
| ▲ | jawilson2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ha, I had the same thought, if you actually know the history of Luddites vs the more colloquial usage of "someone who hates all technology." | |
| ▲ | pixl97 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, being these days that a browser over 5 minutes old probably has a security flaw, it's not much of a reach. |
|
|
| ▲ | steego 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’ll go even further. Sometimes you want to give certain people an incentive to not be your customers because your company would be entirely better off if they were someone else’s customer. |
| |
| ▲ | boelboel 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is why discounts are often a bad way to get customers, you don't want the customers who (only) go for discounts, they're often worse (and not just their sensitivity to prices). | | |
|
|
| ▲ | ngriffiths 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's also super easy to apply it wrong because going above X% in one area normally means sinking below X% in another. I think a clearer way to say it is that sometimes, you have to be almost perfect, and 98% could sound like almost perfect but it's way too low. But definitely the things you don't need to be perfect far outnumber the ones you do. |
|
| ▲ | robalni 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is not just a question of browser age. I use a browser that had its last release less than a year ago.
It doesn't do CSS, it doesn't do javascript and I love it.
I also love to be able to use the websites I need. |
| |
| ▲ | anoneng an hour ago | parent [-] | | I love lynx as much as anyone but it is ludicrous to expect webapp developers to support no script and no CSS. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | rafterydj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If your business plan is selling software to people, 98% is not plenty at all. If your web app crashes one out of every fifty times I launch it, it's not good. The business side of things is reasonable to prioritize right up until it isn't. |
| |
| ▲ | bell-cot 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If your web app crashes one out of every fifty times I launch it, If you're using a different, random browser every time you access our web app, you're in a minority far smaller than 2%. Or you've shared your account with 50 friends, and we'd prefer that you do that with someone else's app anyway. |
|
|
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | miltonlost 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yes, the article discusses how 98% is good in context and bad in others. You just... restated the article but reversed the premise, resulting in an overly optimistic yet anti-social framing. |