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kfsone a day ago

I feel we are caught in a "this is fine, pay more and we may turn down the fire" situation.

The LLM itself produces one token. Some tool adds that token to the input and runs it again, flogging the horse. Downstream another tool, some kind of harness, tries to control this stream by injecting tokens into the context and then sending it to the inference tool, and then trying to pattern-match the output.

Finally, there you are on CodePorn.yata paying for an agent to generate code, paying for an agent to tell you what's wrong with it, and paying for an agent to make it differently bad, and hopefully move on to the next task.

If it still hasn't dawned on you that this isn't just a bubble, but a snake-oil-bubble-bath, just try to imagine the paradigm shift whereby you go on github.com, assign an issue to an agent, the agent fixes it by rewriting the application in Pascal but a reviewing agent catches that you wanted it to print a measurement in Pascals (pa), and you don't pay for the work or the review, you only pay for work that one or two reviewing agents determine is up to par.

Nobody is going to do that because as soon as they test it they're going to have to do some math that won't make sense without admitting/realizing it's not some near-sentient, AGI rating 0.9 intelligence, it's just a text prediction algorithm that can pull out entire sentences when you use it to infer output on topics it trained on.

budsniffer952 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Your strawmen are so incredible it's hard for me to believe you've even used one of these coding tools before.

Careful you don't "it's just a text predictor" yourself into unemployment .

qsera a day ago | parent | next [-]

>Careful you don't "it's just a text predictor" yourself into unemployment .

Says the guy who is "I-can-now-just-push-buttons-and-get-paid-forever"-ing into not only into unemployment, but also being totally redundant.

Before you come back with, "Oh I review everything LLM does": Only in your dreams you ll gain or retain experience by just reviewing stuff. That is even if you actually review every line that the LLM writes...which have literally zero chance of happening. People have hard time keeping their eye open even when their life is on the line when using a pseudo self driving car...

kfsone 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I do have an entirely AI written project, and I don't think I've reviewed even 1% of the code the bots have generated; it's been my pure vibe project. It's about what you'd expect, too.

Elsewhere, I still haven't reviewed the vast majority of AI code I've generated, but all of the AI-generated code I've submitted I did review exhaustively. I have a couple of past roles to thank for drilling some strong code-review strategies and - thus far - have had the willpower to reject an AI generation when I know I can't/won't diligently review.

LLMs do not do anything but generate a token. It's a trivial but critical distinction like RNG vs pRNG. The LLM doesn't learn, it doesn't do backtracking, their output is deterministic.

Not "chatgpt.com"s output, but the LLM powering it; Anthropic aren't customizing a version of Claude's weights/tensors on your inputs, they're adding billable input tokens to the baseline of your subsequent contexts.

Its very financially convenient for Anthropic and OpenAI if people think of the LLM as doing the work, because for a lot of people that conjures a sense of a system that inherently learns and improves.

Even some of the people I've worked with on low-level LLM harnessing tools/systems since early 2023 fall for it and start thinking of the LLM as an AI with the connotations of back-propagation, weight adjustment, ... learning.

The "AI" is in what the harness software does with the inference output and the context it feeds back to it.

It took forever to convince people that quality degrades with context length but then all we got was compaction, there's still huge resistance to harnesses actively curating the context.

A lot of non-devs I've spoken to assumed when their tool said "Now I need to re-read" it was overwriting the 'in memory' copy.

You open aider or code or claude and ask it to fix a bug in file.<c|cpp|js|py>, it reads the entire 8k file, reasons about it (in which it sometimes echoes specific lines of code), and then it "edits the file".

To edit a file, inference currently injects a stream of tokens into the context that your software identifies as a tool call.

[tool name="edit" file="..."] @120,131 - halt_and_catch_fire() + exit_nicely() [/tool]

And frequently the tooling will guide the model to re-read the file, in some pathological cases by prompting the model to generate a tool instruction to do it.

Your context now contains: pre-prompting, your prompt, first file read (8k tokens), reasoning, all the tool calls to make the changes, re-read (8k tokens), conclusory reasoning, tooling prompts llm to describe what has been done, work-done-summary.

Because of the way the underlying LLM works and because of the way the APIs are presented, tools are discouraged from redacting or eliding the original read.

Otherwise, what they'd already be doing is curating the context: read file once, append output from inference/tool calls, and when it's done, replace the original insert of the file.

Having 2 or more disagreeing versions of a significant source file in your context is detrimental to model attention and output quality, and you either see people who get it and manage it, or who wallow in superstition and hand-waving and a near eagerness to pay for "mistakes" that the "model is making" because they believe it is learning, on the fly.

freejazz a day ago | parent | prev [-]

>Careful you don't "it's just a text predictor" yourself into unemployment .

says more than anything else could

c-hendricks a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One more ~~lane~~ layer of LLMs is sure to solve all our problems

paulddraper a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> it's just a text prediction algorithm that can pull out entire sentences when you use it to infer output on topics it trained on

This downplays the incredible things that can be done with it.

There's a lot of noise, yes. How long has the web existed? And yet we're still figuring out how to optimize (HTTP/3).

Disregard the signal at your own expense.

kfsone 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe, but I think the downplay is worth it to emphasize that the things have to be done. The point is precisely that token generation is a phenomenal power source but it does not give you anything but debt unless you build the tools to leverage it.

None of the big players involved right now seem to be doing anything to disarm the perception that the LLM does all the work.

I feel like we're at a state fair 180 years ago having just seen an impressive demonstration of small animals momentarily coming back to life, someone in the crowd said 'eternal life' and everyone lost their minds trying to give money to the 'inventor' on the stage who applied the electric current.

Ask some lay people or junior devs how they feel about LLM mistakes, listen for answers about "learning" etc. Do they realize the model doesn't change? The same set of weights and tensors are deployed to every GPU hosting it. If you use a power tool that lets you specify the temperature and seed, it will generate the exact same output time after time.

"But I told it to always speak like a pirate, and it does": No, you signed up to pay for the model to be told to speak like a pirate every time you use it.

There - that's the curtain I'm talking about that you're lifting/tearing. I think momentarily downplaying the potential of LLMs themselves is worth it to expose that.

kfsone 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I suspect the next real advance will be the LLM equivalent of thin-client/fat-server evolution, a sort of "local lora" system that forms the unique part of your own agent(s) distinct from the underlying static model, and capable of dynamic learning/processing.

Could it be cloud-based? That changes the risk and scale calculus in a way that's going to take a long time to get funding into.

paulddraper 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We're at a state fair watching a lightbulb flicker to life, that works for 12 hours before burning out.

kfsone 6 hours ago | parent [-]

On the summer solstice, with the bulb going on shortly after sunrise and burning out just before it started to get dark? :)

EA-3167 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

What incredible things can be done with it?

budsniffer952 a day ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

piva00 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Would be easier to continue the conversation if you had answered their question though.

There's empirically someone up your comment saying that, better to address it with arguments rather than calling them brainrotted.

freejazz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Add me to the list too, please.

what a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]