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HelloUsername 3 hours ago

Interesting comment from last time this was posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48093670

Inkjet printing requires orders of magnitude more engineering expertise, materials science, industry experience and financial resources than most people imagine. That is the reason, open inkjet printers don't exist despite having been consumer products with the same drawbacks for more than forty years. That is why this is a pre-crowdfund landing page without a demonstrating a working prototype. I would like to be wrong, but I expect you to be waiting a long time. An inkjet printer is not a collection of off the shelf parts. It is a machine that operates at the edge of chemistry, fluid dynamics, and electro-mechanical design...you have to place tiny tiny drops of liquid ink on commodity wood pulp with precision under arbitrary environmental conditions, get that ink to dry on the wood pulp, but not in tank or nozzel, while producing acceptable color, durability, and ease of use. Also lawyers...there are patents.

infl8ed 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I noticed that previous post is from a couple of months ago, and it looks like about a week ago they posted a project update and they claim for their current prototype: "We are successfully printing in both black and full color." https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/...

Of course I have no way of verifying either way. Still I do think the project looks quite interesting, I'm in the market for a printer and this is certainly the most interesting one I've seen in a while.

tjohns 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On the technology side, I'm somewhat hopeful because it looks like they're using off-the-shelf HP ink cartridges for this. HP cartridges embed the printhead into the cartridge itself, and that printhead is arguably the most complicated part of the entire device. Outsource the printhead, and you're just designing a plotter with a PCL interface.

I agree that the bigger challenge is going to be patents.

It also wouldn't surprise me to see HP add DRM to cartridges to authenticate the printer itself if this catches on. (Possibly requiring a printer driver/firmware update.)

hn_throwaway_99 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> I agree that the bigger challenge is going to be patents.

Surely most/all of the patents around the actual inkjet printing function have expired though, right? I had inkjet printers in the mid 00s and if anything I feel like your average inkjet is worse these days.

saturn8601 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they should have purchased a design from Canon or someone that isn't really in this market anymore. It seems like not only are they locked into a specific older technology generation (which could be ok idk) but they also risk HP just discontinuing that cartridge. It seems like the printers for this cartridge were released around late 2017 so they could deprecate earlier than they normally do. Seems like they provide 10-20 years typically. At the same time , maybe this is just meant for a small user base of nerds and maybe HP wont care.

pbronez 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t see why HP would want to do that. They have huge margins on ink, right? I’m sure the increase in cartridge sales would offset lost subscription revenue from useless cloud services, if only because the people who are gonna use an open source printer would never pay for that anyway.

ldoughty 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Looks like the intended use case here is you buy the cartridge once, and refill it, and OpenPrinter won't lock you out after doing so like HP does.

taneq 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, if you’re buying the ink they would be happy, I’d think. The ideal razor-and-blades business model!

alden5 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The fact the campaign is run on crowdsupply makes me a lot more hopeful it'll get to market vs a site like kickstarter. Crowdsupply requires a working prototype before launching and they provide all the expertise to actually get projects to market, off the top of my head I don't believe any crowdsupply project has failed to deliver.

WhyNotHugo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have enormous respect for dot matrix printers. They're easy to repair and service, the tech is relatively simple, it's cheap, it's parts are cheap, its supplies are cheap. It's way more sustainable than any other printer: both the printer itself in its manufacturing and the ribbons themselves. The waste they produce is also much less polluting than any other printer.

hn_throwaway_99 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

They also kind of suck. I'm not one for "the latest and greatest", but their output quality is atrocious compared to modern printers, they're loud AF, and I'm guessing it may have existed but I never saw a dot matrix that didn't have the perforated edge for feeding.

WhyNotHugo 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Dot matrix can handle regular A4 paper since the late nineties.

They're noisier than ink printers, but non-industrial quality can be pretty reasonable for office-level noises.

Quality certainly isn't on par with laser printers, but for text (both Latin and CJK), it's perfectly clear.

taneq 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I think that’s a product of their time rather than the dot matrix tech itself. Paper feeding is hard. Tractor strips made it easier.

dragontamer 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Dot Matrix are still used in outdoor / high humidity environments in USA.

A lot of car shops with regular 100% humidity conditions will swear by dot matrix + tractor for feeding paper + printing. Plus, the carbon copy forms are guaranteed to be exact carbon copies which also leads to legal guarantees about copies of paper being provably exactly the same in the court of law.

bitwize 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Pen plotters could accept sheets of A4 and very precisely position them since at least the 80s. I'm surprised that dot-matrix printers didn't adopt similar technologies sooner, though it could be because by the mid-80s dot-matrix printers were the budget option, fanfold paper with the tractor strips was still abundant, and it was much easier to just stick with the cheaply manufacturable technologies rather than take the risk of innovation with a product that wouldn't sell upmarket anyway.

rubidium 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

99% of this is the printhead and the ink formulation. Assuming you use generic off the shelf solutions for those two components you’re set. All the printer companies do their lock in at the firmware and software layer.

hn_throwaway_99 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah, I found that original comment to be a bit nonsensical. It would be like arguing you can't build your own PC because the lithography tech needed to make modern ICs is really complicated. I wasn't planning a laying out my own chip, and these guys aren't planning on building their own printhead from scratch.

zczc 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

From the specs:

  Compatible cartridges  
  HP 63 and HP 63 XL (US)
  HP 302 and HP 302 XL (Europe)
  HP 803 and HP 803 XL (Asia)
So they just use HP inkjet technology. That makes it less open-source, but even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway.
phoronixrly 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway

You're saying this as if it is a bad thing? I absolutely welcome this decision by the authors!

lima 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

Non commercial licenses are not generally considered open source

amelius 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It really makes more sense to just buy a laser printer, in almost all cases.

ocdtrekkie an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah conceptually this excites me but I decided color printing wasn't worth it at home years ago and haven't regretted it.

taneq 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

A colour laser A4 multifunction is only a few hundred bucks these days, five years ago I’d have agreed with you but it might be worth re-evaluating.

nritchie 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Ever look at how much energy a laser printer uses?

hn_throwaway_99 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Extremely little? High quality inkjets may make sense for corporate or industrial uses, but the majority of home/consumer use cases probably print very infrequently these days. In that scenario inkjet is pretty bad because the ink dries out between uses - there is a reason it's such a common trope that inkjets never work right when you need them.

I switched to laser because I only print like maybe once a month on average (but when I need it, I need it). I'm not the slightest bit worried about the delta energy usage between my laser printer or the inkjet, and I'm sure the inkjet came out worse given the number of cartridges I had to throw away or paper I wasted printing diagnostics.

taneq 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you counting the energy used for print head cleaning, and to manufacture all the wasted ink?

drum55 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's why this is just using off the shelf cartridges with commercial heads.

jboy55 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Which is why its more surprising this was first announced last year and there's no Proof of Concept demo yet?

But really, I've given up on ink jet printers, and have gone the cheap B&W laser route for anything I need to print at home (In the past year, 2 times, a backup ticket and some paperwork that needed a real signature sent back).

But when I had them, the thing that went bad 99.999% of the time was the cartridges or a clogged nozzle on the head. So the advantage here, on the repairability side not DRM, is the rails and motors?

Also that cutter is going to be a pain, having worked on Lightjet printers, that cutter was nearly all field service issues until the FEs started leaving the "laser" key so lab managers could reset the blade themselves.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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GuB-42 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Try to find an typical consumer inkjet printer on AliExpress, you won't find any, or if you do, it will be someone reselling the usual brands like HP or Canon. You will find label printers, industrial printers, 3D printers, thermal printers, and all sorts of weird stuff, but none of them able to put ink on a stack of A4 paper.

If the Chinese, who are known for being able to make knockoffs of everything are not able to make inkjet printers, this should tell you how hard it is.

It addition to the print head, reliable paper transport is also really hard. That problem is often sidestepped by using a paper roll or by printing one sheet at a time, as it is the case for the Openprinter.

____tom____ 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

No.

Per Google, most HP printers are made in China.

A more likely explanation has to do with the economics of ink jet printers. The ink sales are so profitable that HP and other manufacturers subsidize their printers. This leads to prices at or near cost.

Since Ali express vendors can't count on follow on ink sales, they can't compete on price. And competing on price is Ali express's reason for existence.

So, ink jet printer are harder to find on Ali express. At least, low end consumer focused ink jet printers.

Laser printers, which aren't subsidized are common

ValdikSS 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Several Chinese companies have their own domestic laser printers, claiming of in-house components and development (Cumtenn, ZoneWin), and one company does inkjet printers in addition to lasers (Deli Printer).

https://www.delioa.com/products/a4-inkjet-printer/

ZoneWin, a laser printer company, made a clone of both HP LaserJet 1020 and LaserJet M1005, which reuse most of the original/compatible parts (Q2612A cartridge). They claim it's 100% domestic parts only.

https://www.rtmworld.com/news/new-chinese-made-printer-uses-...

poulpy123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The second part is verbose but say absolutely nothing of the difficulty and issues. It could be applied to anything, even cooking a steak

amenghra 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An open source all-in-one-printer would be a great device to have. For eg I would love to have the scanner include a camera. So I can get “instant scans” most of the time, and a higher res scan when needed. Maybe the camera could also notice when the person making copies or scans forgot their original and ping them?

sunshinesnacks 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The required super wide field of view for the camera could be tricky, without making the box really deep. Or am I not thinking about it right?

nerdsniper 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You'd probably need some basic custom lens (not crazy $$) that would distort the heck out of the image, but you could correct the shape in software. Given that GP wanted this to be the "low quality / high speed" secondary scanning option, the inevitable loss of quality would be acceptable.

Seeing chromatic aberration on a document scan would be strange, but this is basically how many document scans are created today (using phone camera + software correction). It's just the lens effects from this cheap lens would be a lot worse than what Apple/Samsung/Google can do with their super expensive to design custom lens stacks.

KennyBlanken an hour ago | parent [-]

That's pointless when ADF scanners will do a dual-side scan, at around 2-3 seconds per page, and more importantly, can do so with a stack of pages.

They've been around long enough that you can find them all over the place used for quite cheap and they likely only need a cleaning.

NooneAtAll3 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

isn't inkjet an outdated tech by now?

loloquwowndueo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

How so?