> This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers.

Seems to me like your comment is simply an example of prejudice.

You're just describing another standardized incentive structure that you're operating in, and using that as a basis to extrapolate that programmers of all kinds—whether they work on a video platform or on machinery that could cause catastrophe if it fails—are implicitly careless careerists who refuse responsibility by nature.

▲ sixtyj an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The prejudice seems to be everywhere. Unfortunately, to my knowledge.

Eg. architects vs construction engineers vs land surveyors vs construction designers vs urban planners… anyone of them thinks that their profession is more valuable than the others…

▲

hiyfsch 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

Honestly it’s hard to refute the fact that we need roads and houses more than we need cat videos.

The real differentiator though is that the engineers of tangible things can get sued and go to jail if someone dies, but it seems tech companies gets away with atrocities (profits at the expense of teen suicides) with zero repercussions.

But, what is being described is THE EFFECT OF INSTITUTIONS ON INDIVIDUALS. This happens in every industry. The larger the company, the more disconnected people become.

	▲	thaumasiotes 11 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> Honestly it’s hard to refute the fact that we need roads and houses more than we need cat videos. This is a fundamentalist perspective; it's hard to dispute that if we didn't have any roads, houses, or cat videos, we would need new roads more than we needed new cat videos. It's much easier to dispute the idea that we currently need new roads more than we need new cat videos; we already have a lot of roads.

▲ vintagedave 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An example of prejudice? What an extraordinary statement. It’s an example of ethical, competent, responsible professionalism.

The ‘incentive structure’ is non-financial and based on the ethics of valuing other humans. This is a professional duty. To even call it a ‘incentive structure’ feels like it’s missing the point.

▲ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

▲ j45 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I understand the direction of your comment, engineering doesn't guarantee security either.

Hubris is the single biggest downfall, whether it's pegged on insecurity, or a false sense of knowledge, superiority or entitlement.

The very best and most experienced people I know have deep expertise, and maintain a healthy mistrust of their own work to keep an eye on it and improving it.

Real world experience and run history is a big thing, and people can re-learn the lessons of the past over and over with their egos, or also be open to learning from others to learn quicker.

▲ HenryBemis an hour ago | parent [-]

It's not hubris (for the engineer) in this case though. It is the fact that company X knows that its dept Y can thrive with 10 engineers, and stay afloat with 5 engineers, so the magic number is 5. And then it is down to the individual to convince their manager (or resign) that problem_A is bad, but problem_B is worse, but not in my P&D objectives.

  The hubris comes from the fact that the CEO doesn't hear the problems that Directors don't disclose.
  The hubris comes from the fact that the Directors don't hear the problems that Senior Managers don't disclose.
  The hubris comes from the fact that the Senior Managers don't hear the problems that Managers don't disclose.
  And Managers simply don't care to hear the problems that Engineers face because "shuddup and close that Jira ticket within 48 hour or else".

I am ~50, I have worked (now..) 20? 20+ years in Audit/Compliance, and I laugh-cry inside.... and I am NOT surprised when I read about cases like this, it's another day in the office/life..

(definitions)

The terms hubris, ate, nemesis, and tisis originated in ancient Greece and had specific meanings and roles in everyday life.

  Hubris
  “Hubris” was a fundamental concept in the lives of the ancient Greeks and was used to describe someone who overestimated their abilities and behaved in an arrogant and offensive manner toward others, toward the laws of the state, but above all toward the gods.
  According to ancient beliefs, such acts of hubris offended and enraged the gods.

  Ate
  “Hubris” consequently provoked the intervention of the gods, and especially Zeus, who sent “ate”—that is, a clouding or blinding of the mind—upon the hubristic person.

  Nemesis
  “Ate” led the hubristic person to commit further acts of hubris, until they committed a grave folly or fell into a very serious error, which provoked “nemesis”—that is, the wrath and vengeance of the gods.

  Tisis
  Next comes “tisis,” that is, the punishment and ruin or destruction of the person who committed hubris.

▲ daveguy an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It's because the first sentence of the American Society of Civil Engineers code of ethics is:

Members of The American Society of Civil Engineers conduct themselves with integrity and professionalism, and above all else protect and advance the health, safety, and welfare of the public through the practice of Civil Engineering.

The first tenant of a software engineers code of ethics is:

fuck it, make the boss some money.

Or, formally, according to the ACM:

Contribute to society and human well-being.

Which means fuck-all and includes absolutely zero enforcement like it does for real engineering professions. So do us all a favor and don't whine about our discipline's lack of standards while dipshits who call themselves software engineers are tokenmaxxing a pile of shit and SEO optimizing manipulative user environments for profit.