> Folks who dislike ORMs seem to have this false dichotomy that "the ORM _must_ be used for all queries", which is a self-imposed/unpractical restriction.

I've always heard a major selling point of ORMs is "You don't have to write the actual SQL anymore"

Because of that, I tend to not trust people who use ORMs to even know how to write queries by hand in the first place

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stephen 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You're right, that has been another "pro ORM" pitch that has gone awry and, taken to the extreme, is wrong imo.

My nuanced articulation is "you don't have to write the _boilerplate_ SQL for the 90% of just-do-some-CRUD endpoints in your enterprise SaaS application, but you 100% need to 'know SQL' for the last 5-10% of ~reporting/analytics queries that the ORM is going to mess up".

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marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

AKA making the easy parts easier while making the difficult parts harder.

	▲	airstrike 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		The difficult parts are just literally a raw SQL string so how is that any harder?
	▲	jcgl 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		No? ORMs don’t preclude writing raw SQL, so it’s just making the easy parts easier while leaving the difficult parts the same.

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bluefirebrand 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Personally I find the 90% boilerplate SQL is easy enough to write that injecting an ORM into the process doesn't make much sense

But that's just me