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petcat 4 hours ago

My understanding is that these are pretty low-tech chips only for industrial uses?

blitzar 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war.

You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of survival will be able to be locally produced without scavenging washing machines for parts.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent [-]

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning

The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

upboundspiral 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Phones and laptops from a few years ago are not suddenly unusable.

Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Even gpu inference on older process nodes is perfectly doable. The HPC space absolutely prefers newer chips but hasn't ripped out their 2018 chips in their clusters because they still deliver value.

And sure, the latest best things sells for higher margins for now, but with the way consumer prices are going, people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less.

The greater danger to a working economy is not absence of the absolute must cutting edge chips but lack of independence which this initiative seems to seek to curtail. Good for Germany.

ifwinterco 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A drone will work with 30nm chips just fine, but it won't work with no chips at all

jijijijij 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Europe's economy has a higher share in the industrial and agricultural sector. The US isn't the sole "western" benchmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_secto...

seabird 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Only for industrial uses” is kind of a crazy thing to say when you say it out loud, don’t you think? You might as well say “only for having real-world impact”.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent [-]

And 3nm CPUs, GPUs, phone SoCs don't have "real world impact"?

One could say they have an even bigger real world impact.

seabird 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

You do not need a 2nm processor to run an engine, perform an ultrasound, drop a missile on someone's head, make 10 million parts in a factory, or fly a plane. The vast majority of the increased processing power we've developed since the mid-2010s gets pissed away rendering 30MB websites or generating AI cheating fruit husband videos. Every phone SoC release for the last 10 years combined has done less in the real, concrete world we live in than industrial controls hardware from 30 years ago.

We can vibecode SaaS junk that we will have all forgotten about this time next year at never-before-seen speed, but every single day, hundreds or thousands of times a day, you brush up against something that was built by an AB or Siemens PLC installed in 2004 that might be slated for decommissioning in a decade or so.

mqus 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

they may low-density, but low-tech?

alephnerd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> these are pretty low-tech chips only for industrial uses

I don't like this framing.

These aren't logic ICs but that doesn't mean they are useless or "easy".

Heck, the only countries with Gallium Nitride fabrication capabilities and knowhow are the US, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and India.

In fact, compound semiconductors and power electronics is one segment where Europe's China dependency is extremely high, as they have significant uses from automotive to PLCs to weapons systems, and China has already begun embargoing the EU's access to rare earth elements [0] and has begun enforcing sanctions against the EU's aerospace and UAV industry [1].

These are dual use technologies and a major reason why both the US and China heavily invested in compound semiconductor capacity in the late 2010s and early 2020s.

Edit: can't reply

> In 2024 Belgium closed its only semi fab, which had recently pivoted to GaN

THEMA Foundries is working in photonics, not GaNs [2]. The GaN initiative (BelGaN) failed and the only two buyers interested in buying out the property for GaN fabrication were a Chinese and Indian player [2].

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/eu-firms-brace-more-shut...

[1] - https://www.scmp.com/economy/global-economy/article/3351292/...

[2] - https://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2025/apr/belg...

chicken-stew 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In 2024 Belgium closed its only semi fab, which had recently pivoted to GaN.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>Heck, the only countries with Gallium Nitride fabrication capabilities and knowhow are the US, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and India.

So basically all major industrial powers? In which case I don't get the use of the world "only" here, as if the EU, the richest block in the world, deserve praise for doing something countries a lot less wealthier are doing.

> and China has already begun embargoing the EU's access to rare earth elements [0] and has begun enforcing sanctions against the EU's aerospace and UAV industry [1].

The way it's framed it sounds like China is some evil bad guy for doing that but that's standard practice that the EU and US also do. The EU also restricts ASML EUV machines to China and sanctions Chinese tech in their defense sector. Standard stuff.

alephnerd an hour ago | parent [-]

> So basically all major industrial powers

ASEAN doesn't have the capacity yet, but this is changing in 3-5 years as Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam have gotten IP transfers from European, Korean and Japanese technology partners.

Neither does the rest of the Europe excluding an Ireland-UK-UAE JV called ChipX (but the team is largely located in the US, UAE, Malaysia, and Japan) and the portion of STMicro in France that was part of state-owned Thomson Semiconducteurs before it was privatized.

Neither do any of the major industrial states in the Americas like Canada, Mexico, or Brazil.

> that's standard practice that the EU and US also do

My point is that states need to build domestic capacity where possible. And the EU is not a state. France continued to protect their GaN fabrication IP closely (not even sharing it with Italy despite STMicro being a French-Italian JV), and same with Germany to a certain extent.

imtringued 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Germany doesn't design high end SoCs or x86 processors so why would they build a fab for them?

petra 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Designing a secure platform is possible within the EU[1].

[1]They need to use US EDA tools, And manufacture masks but maybe there are tricks they won't need to trust them - like inspecting critical parts of the masks.

IshKebab 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not just high end CPUs that use the latest processes. Power, Performance and Area is important to all chips, including microcontrollers, FPGA, etc.

alephnerd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Bad take.

Design capacity doesn't imply fabrication capacity, as can be seen with Israel and India's comparative dominance in the chip design industry.

Design capacity (basically programming and logic design) is orthogonal to front-end fabrication (basically material science and chemical engineering) which is orthogonal to back-end/OSAT (basically materials science and metrology).

Only the US and Taiwan have domestic E2E capacity in all 3.