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sevenzero 5 hours ago

We get what we deserve. We let the top 1% destroy our planet and also let them live the longest in their bunkers, while we deal with the repercussions of not having done enough. But I've noticed that folks on HN are very very fond of capitalism, so it's no point arguing against it on here and on the effects of wealth accumulation and greed.

CuriouslyC 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The distribution here is bimodal. There are plenty of Elon-shilling exploit the solar system types, but also plenty of skeptical types who see all the futurism bullshit as a lever to maintain control.

notact 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you help me understand how alternatives to capitalism, such as central planning, would necessarily be better at preserving the planet?

someonebaggy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The alternatives to capitalism are a wide spectrum, ranging from totalitarian dictatorship (aka central planning) all the way to free markets with sensible regulations. What they all have in common is not being capitalism, i.e. not putting power solely in the hands of the wealthiest.

ericmay 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> capitalism, i.e. not putting power solely in the hands of the wealthiest.

This critique doesn't make sense. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. You're actually a capitalist whether you know it or not and you agree with capitalism at a rudimentary level. Your complaint about "power in the hands of the wealthiest" is a matter of government dysfunction, not the economic system. In fact, the economic system, capitalism, is performing well in spite of the poor performance of the governmental system.

Countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Norway which are often hailed as model countries for livability and "democratic socialist" states are highly capitalistic, and by some measures more so even than the United States.

In this chain of conversation the grandparent wrote something about the 1% destroying the planet. That's a red herring. Everyone jetting around the world taking vacation, buying bottled water, driving cars, eating cheeseburgers, you name it are doing much more actual damage than just the 1% who, while doing a disproportionate amount of climate damage (however we want to measure that) are not responsible for most of the total amount of climate damage. That's not to excuse them, of course, and as a matter of government dysfunction for example ask why luxury goods like private jets or yachts aren't taxed at a much higher rate, or perhaps aviation fuel for private use (I'm not suggesting these are good or bad policies, but just examples at the surface level).

If you want to address climate change you have to not only demand reform across the board, but make personal changes in your own life. If you are unwilling to do that, you'll find yourself in similar company, shouting from the rooftops if only we taxed the billionaires and finding nothing was done to help or fix the situation.

someonebaggy 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Private ownership of the means of production is one salient feature of capitalism, but it's not the definition. Capitalism is when capital controls everything, more-or-less.

inglor_cz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unregulated capitalism does not exist anywhere on this planet, and the US is in fact quite a bureaucratic country, though less so than many others.

"putting power solely in the hands of the wealthiest."

Do you think it is? Then let some of the wealthiest try to obtain a permit in downtown SF for a mere block of flats, the likes of which used to be built by the thousands 100 years ago. If it takes less than a decade, I would be surprised.

There is a lot of power outside the private sector. Every environmental or political group that sues any project does, in fact, wield a lot of power of the "veto" variety, which used to be prerogative of kings.

someonebaggy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The wealthiest are having no problem acquiring permits for data centers. Why would they want flats when DCs are so much more profitable? Last century it was highways.

inglor_cz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No problem? Didn't New York (the state) actually stop issuance of permits for data centers for a year or so?

Sure that you can get a permit somewhere, that is just federalism. But you may not get it where you want it, and given that data centers are now a part of the general culture war, I expect that many blue states will now attempt to regulate them out of existence, at least in urban and semi-urban areas.

sevenzero 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Regulators being paid off arent actually regulating things you know? Regulation as it is, is extremely flawed and prone to corruption.

inglor_cz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Bad governance is a very hard problem to solve. We have been living in organized states for over 4000 years and various combinations of corruption and nepotism seem to be common problems regardless of the political and economic system.

The very fact that the question "Quod custodiet ipsos custodes?" (who will guard the guards themselves?) was originally formulated in Latin is an indication of how long has this been going on.

esme388 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Isn't it "quis"? It would be nice to get a classical education of course but I don't actually know the difference

ericmay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure but this wouldn't be an argument against capitalism, it's an argument for reform of government. If you think that regulation is extremely flawed and prone to corruption, then governmental systems including socialism and communism would be even more flawed since they are by definition more highly regulated.

1234letshaveatw 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's must be so interesting to live regulation free! Where abouts are you from?

wonderwonder 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The planet is fine friend. The cool thing about the relentless march of technology is that we will eventually fix anything we break along the way. There is no limit to what we can achieve. There is certainly nothing you can do about it so go outside, lie by the pool or the ocean, enjoy life.

Rodmine 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's the bottom 99% who destroy the planet by not killing themselves.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
vrganj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People here strive to be the ones hiding in the bunkers as the world burns.

bell-cot 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most humans would prefer hiding in a bunker to burning.

And far better to be hiding, than watching and playing a fiddle from atop some convenient high wall. Or plotting how to destroy your fellow alpha arsonists next.

someonebaggy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It would be even better if the world didn't burn.

1234letshaveatw 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ban AC!

Leonard_of_Q 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, sure, capitalism, 1%, etc. Spoken like a 15yo who just saw some DSA- agitprop on TikTok and is now ready to solve the world's problems.

buellerbueller 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Solving the world's problems is certainly a more laudable goal than the accumulation of wealth, don't you think?

inglor_cz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Cannot judge this before knowing what world's problems is that particular person intending to solve.

There are people who fervently believe that the world's problems are caused by something like international Jewry or lack of sufficient religiosity or existence of democracy. I fervently hope that they don't get to succeed in their solutions.

sevenzero 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Just proves my point :)

ajkjk 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

people are very fond of it here -> there's no point arguing against it here?

Backwards logic. If they're fond of it then they're the people to be arguing against, no?

sevenzero 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Resource exploitation and destruction of ecosystems are direct results of capitalism and greed and neglect. I stopped bringing up arguments against capitalism on here generally due to the sheer amount of people in privileged circumstances that wouldn't change a thing about their ways. Also doesn't help that people in tech often times have no sense of empathy whatsoever, so its no use to argue about this on here.

jdross 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Socialist Russia was an environmental disaster. https://www.gchumanrights.org/preparedness/the-environmental...

someonebaggy 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are many things that are not either capitalism or Russia.

buellerbueller 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The grandparent of your post, however, blamed capitalism for the destruction of the environment, as though other economic systems would not do the same. So your comment isn't really that relevant if the parent to your post is just offering a counterexample. I get it, you don't like capitalism, but jumping every time capitalism is mentioned--particularly when your point isn't really relevant--doesn't really win others to your side.

someonebaggy 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The destruction of the environment that has actually occurred in our capitalist countries has been because of capitalism.

It's like saying desktop enshittification has been caused by Microsoft. This is true in our timeline, even though if Apple had owned the desktop for 30 years they also would have enshittified it.

ImPostingOnHN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This line from your article really stood out to me: "It was typical to use natural resources extensively without considering the effects on the environment."

Because, per the article, the environmental disasters under "Socialist Russia" seem to match many of the ones in "Capitalist America". The thing in common between the two seems to be rich oligarchs controlling government, and leveraging their power to extract profits, with little regard given to the proles or the environment.

Crazy how much the supposedly "pro-capitalist" right wing mirrors the supposedly "Socialist Russia" sometimes.

sevenzero 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes yes socialism also made mistakes so capitalism must be better!!

inglor_cz 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I lived under both systems.

Yeah, socialism was abandoned precisely because capitalism was better. By the 1980s, residents of Central Europe could quite clearly compare and saw that their western neighbours were richer, healthier and enjoyed cleaner air and water than those of the "Camp of Progress".

Market economy + democracy beats top-down enforced utopian intellectual projects like a Marxist-Leninist state by a difference of a league.

We tried that on our own people so that you don't have to.

theultdev 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

so if it's socialism/communism destroying the environment it's a mistake. but if it's capitalism it's by design?

nothing other than the prosperity that capitalism generates is inherently bad for the environment. yeah if you pull people out of poverty their carbon footprint will probably increase. but the alternative is them living in poverty and starving under a communist system (like always)

the amount of goods and services capitalism has generated has saved so many lives. we have huge amounts of excess food we send across the world.

adrian_b 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The so-called socialist economies were just the extreme form of monopolistic capitalism.

As a child, I experienced the reality of "socialism", where every word used by the ruling elites meant something very different from what it was claimed to mean.

Unfortunately, already for more than a quarter of century USA and most "capitalistic" countries every year become more and more alike to the former socialist countries, from all points of view, like great wealth inequality, markets dominated by quasi-monopolies, non-existent political opposition, mass surveillance of the population, confusing propaganda in all mass-media, less and less chances to afford to truly be the owner of many kinds of things, like houses, cars or computers. If your car or your computer or your smartphone or your TV set do whatever their vendor or the government want, instead of doing what you want, then obviously you are not their owner.

theultdev 4 hours ago | parent [-]

fancy way of saying "communism has never been done properly before."

yeah well that's because the execution matters and turns out when you give people power to choose who gets what, they abuse it. go figure.

KronisLV 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe it’s never been done properly cause human nature will never allow it to be, e.g. it’s an ideology that’s incompatible with humanity.

But surely there’s a more sane option than under regulated capitalism with a problematic wealth distribution and fucked up incentives that encourage short term profit at the expense of society, environment and all else?

theultdev 3 hours ago | parent [-]

then it's a terrible system to govern humans under.

your system should work with human nature or it will never work.

capitalism exploits greed to generate prosperity. socialism falls under greed.

and no there's not a better solution, or at least it hasn't been found yet. if it was it'd still be a form of capitalism, not the other side of the spectrum.

but we disagree on the effects of the current system. capitalism has not been at the expense of society, the opposite in fact. we've had so much prosperity due to it.

same with the environment really. communist countries don't really have better air quality, worse in fact! US has the money from capitalism to develop clean tech.

ImPostingOnHN 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree with both of y'all: Humans are inherently tribal, greedy, and selfish, and seek to better themselves and their kin at the expense of others.

Communism seeks to mitigate or avoid this human instinct, often failing.

Capitalism throws its hands in the air and says "ok, be greedy and selfish, ignore others and society, and if we're lucky, and it sometimes provides any societal benefit, that's purely incidental and secondary to you making money".

adrian_b 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Communism has never been done properly, because it cannot be done properly.

Communism is an erroneous idea. It starts from a correct premise, that humans who have accumulated much wealth are able to use it abusively for accumulating more and more wealth at the expense of the others, and this positive feedback cannot be stopped without some kind of regulation.

However, the solution proposed by communism is an illusion that cannot work with real humans. The communist solution is to confiscate everything valuable from all citizens and put it under the management of the state bureaucrats, who supposedly will administrate it efficiently and in such a manner as to produce maximum benefits for all citizens.

The reality is that of course the communist bureaucrats are composed of the same people who succeed to become politicians or managers everywhere, i.e. those for whom the priority is to satisfy their own interests and greed, and not the interests of the entire society.

Therefore in all socialist/communist countries, those who were supposed to manage resources in the name of the "entire society" behaved exactly like the owners of those resources, so they lived like US millionaires or even billionaires, while most of the population lived in poverty, because all what their parents or grand-parents had in the past had been confiscated and now they were at the mercy of their managers, who decided unilaterally what they should be allowed to work and what they should receive to be able to live.

The only solution that could work would be the exact opposite of communism. Instead of centralizing everything, the production of at least all the things strictly necessary for living should be as distributed as possible, done by numerous small local companies, not by a few huge global monopolies.

Instead of having 3 producers of memory chips for the entire Earth, there should be at least 3 or 4 in every country. Similarly for any other industrial product.

Unfortunately that is extremely unlikely to happen because during the last decades everything has evolved in the opposite direction.

To continue with the same example, when I was young a large fraction of the European countries were still able to make integrated circuits and computer memories, even many of the East-European countries. But then one-by-one most electronics or computing companies have been bought or closed, until none survived. An important role in the disappearance of the electronics industries in most countries had been that of USA, who used various means of pressure and blackmailing to prevent other countries to enact protectionist measures favoring their internal producers against US companies, i.e. exactly what now USA itself uses against China.

inkcapmushroom 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Those things have also happened under other forms of economic structure, such as feudalism and communism. In fact there's no point in human history when we weren't manipulating the environment for our gain, destroying some species and promoting others in the process, we just got better at it over time. It's sort of an inevitability given we are megafauna who take a lot of resources per human to live, and there are an awful lot of us.

Rather than blaming "capitalism" as a whole, I would more put the blame on our ability to ignore negative externalities when pricing things in. That occurs just as much in any other economic system.