Mississippi, the poorest state, has similar median income to Germany. I’m pretty sure 50% of the people there are not in abject poverty.

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impossiblefork an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, but German society is structured to require much less energy, just as Dutch society is structured to use much less land.

If you put Germans whose lives function in a US-style, even just getting to work will be a huge drag.

Misery depends on the structure of society. Here in Sweden I can walk to work. This means that I'm spending zero money on travel to work, and that my travel to work contributes $0 to Swedish GDP. But this is actually better than if Swedish GDP were higher and I was traveling by car.

This is one way in which GDP can be extremely misleading.

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joe_mamba 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

>Here in Sweden I can walk to work.

That's you. but nobody In Sweden drives to work?

I see walking to work as an relative to each individual and their job lcoatiopna dn circumstance of where they live, not a country related thing.

For example, ,ost of my jobs in EU that me and my gF had required a car to get to work because companies put their offices out in the boonies to save money so walking was not an option, and neither was public transport.

> But this is actually better than if Swedish GDP were higher and I was traveling by car.

GDP growth "experts" would disagree. It's the reason we don't have mandatory WFH for white collar jobs after Covid proved it's possible and salves the environment

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impossiblefork 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

>That's you. but nobody In Sweden drives to work?

A smaller fraction than in the US. I think most people I know drive.

>I see walking to work as an relative to each individual and their job lcoatiopna dn circumstance of where they live, not a country related thing.

Well, it isn't. It's about how walkable environments are.

>GDP growth "experts" would disagree. It's the reason we don't have mandatory WFH for white collar jobs after Covid proved it's possible and salves the environment

Well, they may disagree, but the whole point is the goal of society isn't GDP, since GDP is easy to game with things like creating situation where people are effectively forced to waste energy, drive to work-- that sort of thing.

	▲	joe_mamba 2 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		>but the whole point is the goal of society isn't GDP THen why are people bullying Japan for stagnant GPD growth and refusing mass migration to boost GDP?

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afc an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Per Wikipedia, in 2018:

* Median household income in Mississippi: $44,717

* Median wage in Germany: €5,370 per month, equals $73,565.

So even the individual median wage in Germany is more than 50% higher than the median household income in Mississippi.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

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atq2119 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This doesn't actually seem to be true based on a quick googling, i.e. Germany has somewhat higher median income.

But in addition to the raw numbers, you have to keep in mind that they don't account for cost of living and that different countries account for various services differently, especially health care.

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mc32 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Totally understand that; but it counters the assertion of “abject poverty”. Perhaps relative poverty is a better descriptor but abject poverty is someone living in cardboard tents by the riverbank. Regular poor is living in section eight housing or subsidized housing. I don’t think we have 50% of Mississippians living in abject poverty.

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officeplant an hour ago | parent [-]

As a gulf state resident, a whole lot of us live in shitty old shotgun houses that have been patched up hundreds of times just waiting for the next hurricane to wipe us out finally.

I would assume this doesn't account for Germans having different healthcare costs which will aboslutely wreck the average American household with how fucked our system has become.

	▲	mc32 5 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Do you believe about 50% of Mississippians live in abject poverty as put forth by GGP poster? The kind of poverty you saw in Dust Bowl era workers or Weimar era Germany or 3rd would today? Sure people may not be middle class but they are not in abject poverty where they steal chickens, shit on the street, sell their relatives into servitude and barely have two changes of clothing. At least I don’t think so. What those people live would be middle class for counties where there is lots of abject poverty. People watch too many influencers and lose track of reality -it’s not all Beverly Hills and Kardashians and Real Wives of X-town everywhere. That’s fantasyland.

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shimman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Okay and what exactly do you get for that income? What are the material outcomes for having a "higher" income than Germany? Because I know very few people that would openly choose to live in Mississippi versus Germany.

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mc32 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The GP claimed that 50% of the US lives in abject poverty. Mississippi our poorest state compares with Germany in terms of median income and Mississippi itself does not suffer from 50% rate of abject poverty. So by extension the US as a whole doesn’t suffer from a 50% rate of abject poverty (begging, trinket selling, selling off relatives, shitting in public, etc.) rates of abject poverty. That’s stuff you’d see in the Great Depression or Weimar Germany level stuff.

	▲	shimman 29 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Okay so thank you for avoiding the question, once again what does a higher income in the southern US get you that people in Germany don't have? People want healthcare, they want cheaper housing, they want high quality jobs, they want lower crime. Material outcomes absolutely matter and there is zero evidence to suggest that "high incomes" in the US translate to anything except more blood for corporations to extract.