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gonzalohm 5 hours ago

I don't have any data to prove it but I think Mac users don't bother "cleaning up" after they are done with their computers.

I think windows and Linux users usually shut down their laptops when they are done.

I believe this is because of how Mac is designed, nothing really closes. You close an app and it's just "minimized". Same behavior as with the lid, you close the lid and it suspends.

If I recall correctly, at some point, this also affected the iPhone, you were not able to "fully close" apps and they decided to add a screen so you could swipe and "close" the app (some run in the background, same as android)

arthurofbabylon 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think your model of open/closed is incomplete and thus misleading. There are more states to a process than "active" and "inactive," and it is not optimal for the system to simply move processes between those two gross states. The obvious example is non-foreground apps during multitasking. A less obvious example is an app during a background refresh.

"Fully closing" a process is not necessarily cleaner than letting the system allocate intelligently, despite what one's puritanical upbringing might make them believe. (Consider how artists often need a messy space to optimally hold their processes.)

gonzalohm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I think my point is that minimizing the process doesn't free the ram it's using. Closing it, even if it stays running in the background, should free up resources

kps 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I believe this is because of how Mac is designed

Yes, that they actually got sleep working properly.

gonzalohm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What's the point of sleeping your computer? If you are not using it then it's better to just turn it off

zanecodes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So I don't have to spend 10-15 minutes saving all my open files (including the scratchpad ones I haven't named) and then later reopening all my applications, recreating all of my tmux windows and panes, setting up my vim splits and tabs again, and starting all of my stopped Docker containers?

zenoprax 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have a feeling someone is going to jump in with a "solution" to each of these forgetting that lots of work is ephemeral/transient and undeserving of even the slightest bit of automation or pre-configuration.

nok22kon 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

funny, decent text editors like VS Code save even the unnamed unsaved files

jerf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Now that I have an nvme SSD in all my computers and boot times are roughly 10-15 seconds or so unless something has gone wrong, the advantage of sleeping is somewhat mitigated.

Back in the spinning rust era, though, a good unsuspend could be something like 50 times faster to get to a running computer. Possibly more, depending on what your OS needed to start up.

It is still more convenient to have my previous environment most of the time, and still faster to unsuspend than boot, but it isn't as much of an advantage as it used to be, no.

vladvasiliu 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It takes ages to cold boot. My desktop is ok-ish, but it doens't matter since I only use it occasionally.

My old HP laptop had a slow-ass BIOS that I was convinced had some kind of bug. I replaced it with a brand spanking new thinkpad 2-3 months ago. Guess what? The freaking BIOS is EVEN SLOWER somehow!

They all wake up instantly from sleep.

I therefore only shut them down when I know they'll be unplugged for a while, because for some reason the HP eats through the battery even when off. If suspended, the battery will be out of juice in like two days. Haven't tried any of this with the Lenovo yet.

Suspend used to work great, but since MS figured they should copy Apple half-assedly, suspend is borken. And I have really no idea what we've gained in exchange.

singron 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you turn it off, it might attempt a 45 minute update when you start it again (yes this has happened to me with macos).

dwb 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The same reason that you don't do a full shutdown every time you walk away from your computer. I don't really believe that you don't understand this.

kibwen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I still remember reaching into my backpack to retrieve my Macbook in sleep mode only to find it hot to the touch, having woken up for some goddamn stupid reason. We had "proper" sleep decades ago: we called it "hibernate". Modern "smart sleep" is a technological regression, and Apple is as big an offender as any.

dminik 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think a large part is also how long it takes to restart a Mac. Every so often a coworker has to restart and I could probably restart my Linux (or even Windows) laptop 3 times before they're back on.

Kind of reminds me of how slow Windows computers used to boot back in the Vista and 7 era.

maccard 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd argue the opposite. My mac wakes up from sleep when I open the lid, and is functional in seconds with the fingerprint. Meanwhile sleep on windows is a complete dumpster truck and can result in any of "works fine", "a bunch of apps have got stuck" or "your battery drained in your backpack".

Also, my Win11 desktop is "fast" to get from POST (which takes > 2 minutes to do RAM check on every boot with 192GB RAM) to the login screen, but it's a good few minutes from log in before windows has started all the background stuff and it's actually functional.

jonhohle 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What’s crazy is that boot time was a headline feature of Snow Leopard.

swiftcoder 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Wat? The apple silicon one on my desk restarts in under 30 seconds. Markedly faster than the Windows PC next to it

dminik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm glad it works for you, but I have witnessed several coworkers restart their macbooks (some M1, some M2, possibly M3) and I don't think I've ever seen a reboot shorter than about two minutes.

At one instance, I rolled over to a coworker who has just rebooted theirs and had a whole 5+ minute conversation.

dwb 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is not true, when you close apps on macOS the process(es) really are finished, just like on Windows or Linux.

LoganDark 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think they think of "closing an app" as closing its windows, which on Mac does not always "Quit" the app.

dwb 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, I see. That is the traditional behaviour but there’s lots of apps that don’t do that, and closing the last window does also quit the app.

LoganDark an hour ago | parent [-]

That's a perfectly acceptable practice for apps that only ever have one window. For document-based apps or apps that have multiple windows, usually the convention on Mac is for closing the last window to not also quit the app. But of course there are exceptions in both directions, it's not a hard and fast rule.

vidarh 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a Linux user, it pisses me off whenever I am forced to reboot, and I'm very disappointed if my laptop uptime is measured in less than months.

Needing to shut down to me indicates something is broken.

gonzalohm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What can possibly require a laptop to be up for months?

I have a Linux server that can run for years without needing a reboot. But my laptop I just shut it down after my work is done

vidarh 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not having to stop sessions of all kinds of things and restart them for no good reason.

It doesn't require it to stay up, and if things were better at retaining state across restarts I would care less, but it's a nuisance to have to log back into things, and get things back exactly how I left them.

I often have half a dozen projects up on different virtual desktops, and leaving them how they were when I worked on it last makes it easier to get back up to speed.

EDIT: I used to leave screen sessions running on servers instead, as the workaround to having to reboot my local machine. But it's nice not to need to.

flowerbreeze 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Different reasons. Mine is on the table and I use it more like a desktop. It will just idle when I'm not around, because I come and go often. My current uptime shows on Debian 30 days, 49 min.

Although... 30 days is maybe a bit misleading, because I ran some heavy shaders without thinking that triggered the GPU watchdog and forced me out of my session. I think killing all user processes is almost like a reboot, although not according to uptime.

bigstrat2003 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Nothing requires it. But if I turn off my computer, it takes 15s or so to boot up. If I leave it on, it's available for me instantly. The latter is a more pleasant experience, so I gravitate towards it.

AlienRobot 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Keeping a PC running when you aren't doing anything with it sounds like a waste of electricity to me.

Electricity also wears down electronic components, so I think it also shortens the lifespan of your PC parts.

LoganDark 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think what you're talking about is how on Mac, an application can stay running without having any windows. Separate from closing all the windows, you usually have to "Quit" the application if you really want it gone. This is useful for a couple reasons:

- You can "Quit" the application without closing all the windows, and then the next time you start the application, your windows can come back.

- You can close all the windows without "Quit"ting the application, and you don't have to wait for the application to load again in order to open a window later.

Additionally, since application lifecycle is managed separately from the open windows, apps can do cool things like saving and restoring the set of open windows through a system restart. Which Windows and Linux still haven't managed. (Maybe Windows can try to restart the processes... I think I saw that becoming an option more recently)

I've never rebooted often in general, even when I daily-drove Windows. Then, it was because it was annoying to get my preferred workspace back after a Windows restart. Now, I daily-drive macOS and I don't often reboot until the machine gets slow/janky because the machine doesn't really need a reboot until then. And I don't hate reboots as much as I would for Windows because macOS is a lot better at session restoration

weego 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

my every day use macbook I expect 150+ days uptime before something goes wonky that forces a reboot

elAhmo 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I used to be in this camp, maybe not 150+ days but with month+ uptimes, but now with Docker I have to restart regularly as I frequently get notes about 'no more disk space' and the only way to reclaim is is to reboot.