| ▲ | elric 18 hours ago |
| For context: he's accused Belgium of being anti-semitic because a couple of Orthodox Jewish mohels are being prosecuted for practicing illicit medicine (i.e. performing ritual circumcision without a medical license). The investigation started after a complaint was filed by a rabbi, so it's hard to chalk this up to anti-semitisim, but that's modern day US diplomacy for you. |
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| ▲ | elil17 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Well, he didn't just say it was anti-semitic. He called for the judges to rule in a specific way. It was very much framed as being about Belgian sovereignty by much of the Belgian media. One of the mohels was from the US, it was viewed as asking for US citizens to have special treatment in the Belgian legal system. |
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| ▲ | magenta4 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's utterly disgusting and is rape and physical violence against a child, or anyone for that matter. It is mutilation of a person's body, often without their consent. rabbis need to be removed from society along with anything associated with them. |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Only solution is to put them with the parents that allowed it to jail with rest of the sexual predators that go after children. Permanently. For this sort of crime there should be no second chances. Your life is forfeit you do not get out to see an other day as free person. Sometimes you just need to protect the children from their parents. |
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| ▲ | toolslive 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For a bit of context
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah#Metzitzah "In three medical papers done in Israel, Canada, and the US, oral suction following circumcision was suggested as a cause in 11 cases of neonatal herpes
"
lovely. |
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| ▲ | elric 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | From what I remember from an interview with the rabbi in question, the "oral suction" was not involved in this case. But because these procedures are being performed illocitly, it is hard to know what's going on or how sanitary it is. | | | |
| ▲ | adverbly 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nope nope nope. That's enough internet news for today thank you! | | |
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| ▲ | hector124 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's considered very anti-semitic in America to be against male genital mutilation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League#Circumc... When Iceland tried to ban it, the ADL had some very choice words about the potential consequences. > Greenblatt sent Iceland's Parliament a letter regarding a proposed infant circumcision ban in that country, arguing that the ban should be rejected due to circumcision's religious significance and health benefits. Greenblatt also said that if the ban passed, the ADL would report on any celebration by antisemites and other extremists, asserting that this would deter tourism and harm Iceland's economy It's scary stuff. |
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| ▲ | elric 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That isn't even the point though. The circumcision itself is perfectly legal in Belgium. The legal issue is with the lack of qualifications of the ones performing them in this case. | | |
| ▲ | elil17 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The particular circumcision was also performed in an unsanitary manner (metzitzah b'peh), hence why a whistleblower brought it to the attention of authorities and it was prosecuted. This is not accepted practice in the US either. No one here is getting arrested for doing a normal at-home bris, even if it's technically illegal. | |
| ▲ | hector124 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Certainly. The part I'm trying to draw light towards is American zionists' bizarre attitude towards circumcision and how eager they are to invoke claims of antisemitism when remotely challenged on it. | | |
| ▲ | antonvs 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You may be overthinking it. Circumcision rates in the US have been as high as 85% historically, and even today are as high as 75% in the Midwest. A perceived attack on circumcision is an attack on the fundamentalist religion that the Americans currently in power claim to follow. | |
| ▲ | wil421 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | hector124 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes - on HN sometimes users use a "throwaway" account when they're commenting on a topic which is particularly charged. I'm surprised this isn't something you're familiar with! I chose to use a throwaway because this topic in particular frequently invites accusations of ill-motivation, sort of like the one you were reaching for. |
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| ▲ | yardie 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the ADL would report on any celebration by antisemites and other extremists, asserting that this would deter tourism and harm Iceland's economy If everything is antisemitism then nothing is antisemitism. | |
| ▲ | einpoklum 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The ADL is a rather discredited pro-Israel organization. It reports protests of Israel and of Zionism as "anti-semitism". Here's a link to a documentary about it from 2009: http://www.defamation-thefilm.com/ | |
| ▲ | mmooss 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | wpm 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Would you be ok with female circumcision being allowed too? To define what I mean, I mean the analogous operation of removing the clitoral hood of a little girl. You think that's alright? If it was someone's "fundamental rite"? Bodily autonomy is a fundamental right. Rights > rites. | |
| ▲ | tuna74 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is totally OK for an adult to choose to be circumcised. It is not OK to do that to babies. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That comment is what I described in the GP: Reasons. | | | |
| ▲ | zappb 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you ready to campaign against making Islam illegal too? | | |
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| ▲ | PowerElectronix 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We should not change body parts of persons that are not capable of consenting to that. Why not wait until someone is capable of taking those decisions by themself instead of imposing them and on top of that risking their health while doing so? At some point we need to accept that in a relfrespecting society health and free will must prevail over any practice that infringes on them. | | |
| ▲ | thisislife2 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Religious edicts apart, it's not that simple - in Judaism and Islam, not circumcising is also considered a health risk. (It's similar to the edict to not eat Pork). Obviously, just as parents don't let a child decide whether they want to brush their teeth or eat as much sweet as they want, not circumcising your kid is thus seen as irresponsible parenting. But yes, circumcising babies seems to be a modern phenomena. (I think this has happened because of the controversy / myth that babies don't feel pain - https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/7182 ). Originally, as far as I know, circumcision was mostly done to pre-teen (those nearing puberty). And is like one of those "puberty rituals" (celebrating the transition of one from childhood to adulthood) that are common in many cultures around the world. (In fact, the onset of puberty was treated as adulthood by many cultures around a century back, and thus teenage marriage was quite a commonly accepted practice). That said, I also agree that there's a political angle too - some people (atheist activists, right-wingers, religious fundamentalists etc.) only use this for identity politics against Judaism and / or Islam. |
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| ▲ | onemoresoop 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Circumcision is fine I guess. What’s weird is when it’s not done in a proper setting (hospital) but in a ritual and by some person who is not a medically licensed. Another thing that we should all have a problem with is the non consenting age of 0. Ultimately, at least hire a doctor and do it in sanitary conditions. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's nothing weird about a religious ritual in a religious setting. > not a medically licensed > hire a doctor and do it in sanitary conditions. Most procedures are done at home by unlicensed people (e.g., family, home healthcare aids). The people who perform circumcisions are trained, experienced, and, afaik, licensed. There's no crisis of bad health outcomes. It's a non-issue created by anti-semites to attack Judaism, and persuade some others to join in (see the GP). | | |
| ▲ | nulld3v 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is absolutely a crisis of bad health outcomes due to relatively simple home medical procedures. E.g. People take Tylenol at home thinking it is safe, meanwhile Tylenol posionsing is the second most common reason for liver transplantation worldwide. The reason we accept these crisis is due to societal, cultural and religious tradition/pressure. IMO, in an ideal world, many of these things should draw additional scrutiny. | |
| ▲ | onemoresoop 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think some religious rituals are weird as hell and are better of relegated to the past or at least asapted to the present. Female mutilation is atrocious, male circumcision is similar but not as debilitating to the non consenting subject. Move the age of the procedure to a consenting age and nobody will give a damn. But wait, why put in danger the practice since young adults may refuse to do it? Better put the head in the sand and double up, suction and all that… | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I think some religious rituals are weird as hell Why should your - or anyone's - assessment of weirdness affect other people's freedom? I think your comment is much worse than weird, it's dangerous to freedom and helps the cause of antisemitism. By your argument, your comment certainly should be banned based only on my opinion. > Move the age of the procedure to a consenting age and nobody will give a damn. You don't understand what's happening; with this victory the antisemites will seek more. There's a term of art for people they, and similar manipulators, capture: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/useful%20idiot | | |
| ▲ | wpm 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Whose freedom are you talking about and to do what? You seem like you are interested only in defending the parent's freedom to mutiliate their child's genitals, not the child;s right to not have parts of their flesh flayed off for no reason. Do you not believe a child has a right to not have parts of their body removed for non-medical purposes without their consent? |
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| ▲ | einpoklum 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Circumcision is an absolutely fundamental rite of Judaism. Offering animal sacrifices in the temple was once an absolutely fundamental rite of Judaism. And that changed. At times, halachic scholarship/philosophy/politics reaches decisions that some commandments (mitzvot) can be followed/maintained symbolically, or semi-symbolically rather than literally. It is conceivable this may happen with circumcision. I mean, the point of circumcision is to signify the covenant of Jehovah with Jews (or with Abraham); it is not the lack-of-foreskin that is the point. > Every Jewish male is circumcised, as far as I know You know wrong. Some - not many, but some - Israeli Jewish parents eschew circumcision. | |
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| ▲ | armada651 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Female circumcision is often more brutal, but I agree with the stance that any mutilation of children is bad. No matter what you think about circumcision, elective surgeries should simply not be performed on children until they're old enough to make an informed decision about their own body. | | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Absolutely. I'm kinda surprised that not mutiliation the kids is such a revolting idea that I'm getting down voted for that. | | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well it is the underlying sexism in the world. Males is the group that society accepts and celebrates hate against. Many people really think it is okay to do things that go against certain minorities. | | |
| ▲ | BobaFloutist 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I hope you're aware that this particular argument only reinforced people in their existing positions, and has no chance whatsoever of convincing people that don't already agree with you. | | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Some times you can not change peoples mind. Especially when they are bad human beings. First step is to point out their evils. So that they can be ostracised from polite society and discussion. This is the tactic they have been using. So goal is not to change them as you can not change evil. It is to get the rest to kick them to curb. |
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| ▲ | mthoms 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well it's also bad when it's done by highly trained medical experts in a modern hospital as part of gender affirming care. It's only when performed as part of a pre-medieval ritual in unhygienic conditions by non-professionals in front of a crowd of gawking onlookers that it is totally fine. | |
| ▲ | 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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