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dolebirchwood 7 hours ago

Why humanoid? Surely there must be a superior physical form factor than one mimicking human anatomy. Is it just supposed to be more psychologically acceptable?

ElFitz 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Why humanoid? Surely there must be a superior physical form factor than one mimicking human anatomy.

There probably (certainly) is. But if you want to build a multi-purpose platform, you’ll soon be faced with a dumb challenge: nearly all interfaces (door knobs, taps, electric switches, cutlery, sponges, every single button out there, pillow cases, wrenches, hammers, signs…) are made for humans. Placed at human hand level. At human eye level.

Nearly all environments (houses, streets, sidewalks, factory floors, offices, toilets, bathtubs,…) are made for humans. Wide enough and tall enough (or short enough, for bathtubs) to accommodate human bodies.

So until we can find one or more form-factors superior enough to justify we adapt everything around it or them, betting that the easiest way to build a single multi-purpose platform able to do most things (and not n platforms for n+ use cases) is to borrow the shape most things are made for wouldn’t surprise me. Plus, you get a wider market.

And then, once you have happy-ish customers, figure out which of these human attributes and shapes aren’t actually needed to do the job.

numpad0 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Those require a hand on a stick. The stick isn't so interesting. Humanoid robots are the stick part, and actually not THAT interesting.

ElFitz an hour ago | parent [-]

Never said it was interesting. Just that it’s easier to sell tech that fits your customers' environments than to get customers to overhaul their environment to fit the unproven tech you want to sell them.

redorb 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are just a few reasons - humanoid make sense, mostly for multi purpose tasks - where if you want a robot to be multi-job, do almost everything a human can do at work --

If you want a weld you need a 1 arm robot, if a robot to weld, then stack, then push parts on a cart across the factory - then sweep up, then etc.. etc.. perhaps a humanoid is alright.

There will definitely be too many people comfortable with ownership / master relationship with a humanoid robot that will do their bidding.

adrian_b an hour ago | parent | next [-]

For multi-purpose tasks, human hands and arms are excellent, but only 2 are too few for many tasks. Humans very frequently need to have specialized gripping tools in order to accomplish tasks that cannot be done with only 2 arms, or they must work in pairs.

A good mobile multi-purpose robot should have 3 arms, or 4 arms for symmetry.

Human legs are normally not necessary. A mobile robot would just need some means to raise and lower its wheels, so that it could step when ascending or descending stairs.

A human head is not useful. The place for the "brain" of a robot is in its "chest", because robots do not have the limitations of living beings, where the very slow propagation speed of the nervous signals forces the nervous systems to be concentrated in the proximity of the main sense organs.

Instead of a head, one should have a couple of mobile arms with video cameras at their end, somewhat like the mobile stalks of crab eyes.

Of the components of a human, only the hands and arms are models useful to imitate. Cephalopod-like arms would be even more versatile than human-like arms, but it is likely that they would be much more expensive at similar performances.

Having the size of a human and human-like hands and arms is good for working in environments designed for humans, but having the shape of a human has no purpose.

jayd16 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I understand the argument but its honestly ridiculous in my eyes. How about a set of arms that can reach into dishwasher and stack dishes and a washer/dryer to fold laundry... Except even without solving the bipedal movement, that doesn't exist at a consumer price point.

Why are we pretending the hardest version of this is close to existing?

Schiendelman 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It doesn't need to be at a consumer price point first, it needs to replace a human at an existing warehouse or manufacturing role first, and that's achievable in the next two years at this point.

When you have arms that can reach into the dishwasher, you're also going to want them to put away your dishes. And so suddenly they need to get up high. And you're not going to have a SECOND set of arms at your washer/dryer to fold laundry, you're just going to buy a second DLC for your existing robot. And it needs to get between those places, so if you have stairs, wheels don't cut it. You need a bipedal robot very quickly.

scheme271 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Stair climbing systems that work using wheels exist. Google stair climbing wheelchairs for a few examples.

Schiendelman 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I am familiar, I'm a big fan of Dean Kamen's work. So far, we haven't seen a single wheeled stair climbing vacuum cleaner, even though the original iBOT is 23 years old.

That solves the horizontal mobility problem. And then you have cabinets - and wheels don't solve the vertical mobility problem. So then you need a scissor lift on those wheels, or a hydraulic lift.

The robotics nerds always end up back at bipedal because it's vastly simpler once you're already solving arms.

jayd16 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why not buy a second set of arms instead of legs or just a set a wheels?

Schiendelman 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I feel like if I write two paragraphs, nobody reads the second one...

jayd16 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Use wheels and buy two if you have to...the Roomba solution. Besides, why do you need to solve stairs the hardest way possible, a fully bipedal robot, before it moves past vapor?

rkomorn 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe they're asking what your argument against buying a second set of arms is, rather than suggesting it as a solution?

Schiendelman 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Totally, and they ask why not wheels...

I think the key is that none of our actual home use cases can be done with just arms. You don't need your folded clothes sitting in front of your washer and dryer, and a set of arms can't handle folding sheets.

jayd16 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Why not? I would love to have a set of arms that could flip the laundry from the washer to the dryer and then take it out of the dryer and fold it and put it in the basket.

Schiendelman 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I understand that particular use case sounds cool! I really do.

And then you want them to put away your dishes, and they can't, even though it's just a software update, because they're across the house. And they're BIG, so you don't have room to store two anyway.

And they were $20,000, so...

stickfigure 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Back around the turn of the (20th) century, electric motors were expensive. It was not uncommon to buy one motor that could do multiple things, like this vacuum/grinder/buffer/blower/pulley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw_8FWJuSho

If we start making robot arms at scale, they're going to get cheap.

I'm also not sure people are really going to want bipedal robots walking around their home, blocking the hallways, recording you in your underwear, etc.

Schiendelman 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, an electric motor is like 10cm on a side. A set of robot arms that can fold laundry are like a 100cm cube. Most people aren't going to have space for two of them.

And the arms need cameras too...

stickfigure 3 hours ago | parent [-]

A washer+dryer is pretty huge already. Seems like it could get some robot arms without changing the form factor dramatically.

That said, I think this is way farther off than anyone thinks. I want to know what the maintenance schedule looks like for robot arms. Looks like a lot of small moving parts. Probably a lot of plastic gears.

In an industrial setting, sure, maintenance is just an expense. But wheels require less maintenance and factories can be designed around the robots.

Retric 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Human spaces are built for humans. Outdoors cars and quad coppers are a great form but constrained by stars, doors, and low ceiling makes them a poor fit.

Alternatively a 2 foot tall or a 20 foot tall humanoid robots aren’t particularly useful. But a good enough 5-6 foot tall humanoid robot can be swapped into an assembly line wherever a human is currently working without redesigning that workspace.

password54321 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of training data being collected is coming from people. You have companies paying people to do chores while recording themselves.

a_wild_dandan 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Backward compatibility with current meatspace tooling.

numpad0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's just Internet hype.

newsclues 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because you can use existing physical equipment with automation, until it’s ready for a full replacement

goretghh 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because it's what Elon and China say that matters. There are exceptions but Korea is not the land of creativity. At all.