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BinRoo 6 hours ago

> In the AI era...

Back in my day, you could also just Google the problems and find the solutions. What mitigated cheating at UVA was the honor code and each professor's faith and trust in our integrity. That culture was enough to not cheat.

Imo, the fix should be to work on culture. Cheating should always be a tempting choice, so that the student may challenge their integrity, which is a muscle that can atrophy.

Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> What mitigated cheating at UVA was the honor code and each professor's faith and trust in our integrity. That culture was enough to not cheat.

The decline of actual consequences for cheating has played a big role.

When I was in college, people who got caught cheating found themselves in a world of trouble. Repeat offenders faced severe consequences like failing courses, which could delay their graduation date if it was a critical-path course. This has a real dollar amount attached to it because you start working later.

Now it seems universities avoid addressing cheating problems at all costs. The professor in this article complains about how hard it was to draw attention to the cheating problem, with no response within his own department.

Students know this. As cheating gains critical mass and you see that nothing bad is happening to the cheaters, you start feeling like you're at risk of falling behind if you aren't cheating. The cheaters are getting higher grades (100% for many in this case) and they get to go out partying while you're still working through the material. You're really screwed if grades are distributed on a curve.

So temptation spreads. Anecdotally, I've seen a few young people lie to themselves and think that they're just going to use ChatGPT to check their answers and learn from it, but they don't realize how superficial it is to have ChatGPT fix your problem and then skim the correct answer. They put less effort into checking their work because they know they have a button to push to check it for them. When they get put into a situation where they can't rely on that button, it all falls apart

lcampbell 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At UVA many years ago, one of my roommates was one of the unfortunate 20 or so annually expelled -- the only outcome of being convicted of breaking the "no cheating, stealing, or lying" honor code. It didn't take repeat offenses, expulsion was a first offense consequence.

Interestingly, it seems like you weren't joking about the decline:

> Finally in the spring of 2022, a sanction reform referendum succeeded with more than 80% of the vote, changing the penalty for an Honor violation from expulsion to a two semester suspension. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_system_at_the_University...

noisy_boy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> When I was in college, people who got caught cheating found themselves in a world of trouble. Repeat offenders faced severe consequences like failing courses, which could delay their graduation date

We had a very real threat of rustication. People still cheated. I think culture does play a big role. Of course, there need to be consequences too.

genghisjahn 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

and there's also the Ivy League grade inflation...

https://jamesgmartin.center/2025/11/harvard-admits-that-grad...

odyssey7 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s a different debate, and imo, the lack of a severe curve makes it safer for students to resist temptations to cheat. Severe curves ratchet up structural pressures for students to cheat, due to a prisoners’ dilemma effect in a zero-sum competitive environment. When there is a severe curve and students are able to cheat, acting with integrity becomes a failing strategy.

tqi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree with the sentiment, however I think the erosion of the honor system is inevitable given the rising cost of college. Somewhere in the last 20 years college became a luxury good, and with it a natural sense of entitlement from their customers.

Couple that with increased awareness that classroom instruction (delivered by tenured research facility who seem annoyed at the idea of teaching) often has little relevance to workplace skills, I think kids have correctly surmised that the smart thing to do is say fuck the code and focus on checking boxes.

bradleyjg 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Imo, the fix should be to work on culture.

We can’t even agree on what’s wrong with it. We aren’t going to be able to fix it.

bonoboTP 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Fixing" the culture includes a much much broader context than just what an individual professor preaches about to a set of students. It includes the entire intergenerational contract, earning the trust of students as well, getting their buy-in. There's a lot of cynicism and distrust against it all and a lot of disengagement because they just don't buy into it anymore with sincerity. It's not simply about scolding them a bit more and telling them that actually cheating is bad, mkay.

One place to start is to question seriously who actually needs a university degree and why, how this credentialism has been stealing years of productivity from young people. Though at least the deal was that in exchange you could expect some middle class job, even if gated behind a totally unrelated bachelor degree. But then this deal also got soured.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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consensus1 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The culture comes from the role of the institution and the degree. The fact is that the primary role of the degree is as a gatekeeper to high paying job opportunities, regardless of what anyone idealistically thinks it should be.

This creates some problems. Let's say that you go to university and major in X to get a job in Y. So you assume that the companies are requiring you to get the degree to prove that you are competent in X which is necessary to do job Y. But when you get to university you realize that most of your classes required to get a degree in X actually have nothing to do with X. Furthermore you also notice that students who just cram for the test and have no functional knowledge of X are still getting As and graduating.

Then you get a summer internship in a job doing Y. You notice that learning to do job Y really has nothing to do with what you learned about X in school. You notice that your mangers an the company who are really good at job Y (and all majored in X) have basically forgotten everything they know about X and know much less about it than you, but are excellent at job Y. You finish your internship and now know that you are perfectly capable of doing job Y. But, of course you can't get job Y yet because you don't have your degree in X. You have to go back to school and learn more about X before anyone will hire you even though you already know more about X than the people who do job Y and who you can see really don't need knowledge in X to do the job.

So you are being forced to get a degree in X to get job Y, but job Y doesn't really require knowledge of X. And on top of that, a degree in X doesn't even really mean you have any functional knowledge of X! Everybody just learns Y on the job anyway!

So now you have an exam in X, so you decide fuck it, why would I spend time on this? This whole system is retarded, I'm just going to use ChatGPT.

This was basically my experience in college. I never cheated, both because it was harder before LLMs and because I didn't really need to study much to get As, but I find it hard to fault people who do. I really struggle to see how integrity plays into this system. The system itself has no integrity, so having integrity inside it almost seems like being a sucker. If you want to change the culture to promote integrity, the education and the degree have to mean something besides an arbitrary bureaucratic gatekeeping device.

willis936 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. If you want the honor system back then you need to offer more stable safety nets. It's not "kids these days", it's the natural result of the systems adults have made.

nerdsniper 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life.

Yes it was. This was the pitch for as long as Google has existed. The only relevant change from the early days of Google is that now you also need to go to a T20 school and GPA inflation has gone completely insane.

bonoboTP 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even in the old times, including at medieval universities, most students weren't simply hobbyist curious gentlemen who studied it for idyllic leasure reasons, but people studied things to then get various jobs, teaching, administrative and clerical or legal work, etc.

5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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thaumasiotes 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life.

Assuming the person you're talking to is still alive, this isn't true.

> The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement.

This isn't true either; if your student body consists of only those people, you don't need any system at all. There is no point in even notionally punishing students who don't want anything from you.

PopePompus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm still alive, and college wasn't really sold primarily as a financial investment when I attended in the 1970s.

nekusar 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think we're headed into a world where remote degrees have little value for this reason. Universities which have remote or take-home exams won't be far behind.

Which sadly only makes it more of a rich kids' game, because the name-brand universities become the only ones that can be trusted. You see an out-of-state university that isn't a household name on someone's resume and you can't tell if it's one where students are monitored or if it's just a place where people pay a lot of money to transfer questions and results back and forth from ChatGPT.

I think we're also going to see a lot of people crash out of college halfway through when they start their academic career cheating, then get hit with a dose of reality when they encounter classes that require in-person, monitored work. If this happens 2-3 years into college, the student isn't going to quickly catch up. They're going to crash out.

I don't think this is having the effect you think it does.

s5300 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

overtone1000 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If one of these clients of yours became an engineer, doctor, or lawyer, would you want their services for yourself or your family?

lstodd 3 hours ago | parent [-]

if someone shows that kind of dedication to engineering, and make no mistake, this is engineering, I would certainly hire them at least as an apprentice.

one can settle into a doctor or lawyer career some time later. one can't learn to think out of the box on a whim.

npstr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Seems easy to counter all of this. I study at a German remote university, and they require, next to the front camera, a second camera to record the screen + hands and arms of the student while taking exams, and before the exam starts a complete video of the room, below desk areas, ears, etc. I don't see an angle how to reliably cheat in such conditions, and have seen nothing mentioned by any other student. So I would say it's up to the university if they want to allow fraud like that...they could easily stop it.

05 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Second stationary camera recording the screen meaning you just need to replace the screen with the virtual screen in the footage you send as the secondary camera feed, easy for a static camera because it’s an affine transform with fixed parameters. If you don’t wave your arms in a way where they overlap the screen region then it’s ridiculously easy, otherwise don’t forget to release the ‘cheating on’ foot pedal before doing that.

nekusar 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In-ear Bluetooth earbud with TTS.

There's also TI-84 mods that add esp32 and can hook up an LLM.

There's always a defeat.

willis936 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Wow and I thought I was slick for programming routines for Maxwell's and coordinate transformations in my TI-84.

Gigachad 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The world is getting more competitive. Integrity goes out the window when cheating in a test can mean meaningful better life outcomes and when you believe everyone else will be too.

odyssey7 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The thing about the community of trust—of which all stewards—is that camaraderie, respect, identifying with the community, and integrity will keep the majority of students from cheating. And if that isn’t enough, the “single sanction” was historically a sufficient danger to raise the stakes immensely.

However, some students will cheat, and for that reason, I am very much against curves. If you learn the material and demonstrate that you have, you should get the A. But it’s more work for professors to calibrate their curriculums, and there seems to be no real accountability for the inverse of learning objectives—teaching objectives—so curves are likely here to stay.

cindyllm 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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