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QuadmasterXLII 6 hours ago

I’m 30 and “we can’t do tests in paper” seems _insane_. Just how metastatic has ed tech been in what, 9 years since my undergrad?

rtpg 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I had to do "write code on paper" stuff as part of french engineering school entrance exams.

It's fine (tho annoying when you lose points to "typos"), but it limits what kinds of problems you can reasonably put on the exam. You'll definitely lean a bit more into theoretical stuff than practicals. Which is fine for some courses, I think a bit less interesting in other courses.

Remember, the hand written code is also harder for reviewers to grade! You have to manually run the code in your head, for example

Having said all that... "we've booked the computer room, you don't have internet, go type up all your stuff in this VM we have set up" feels fine if you don't like this constraint IMO

fn-mote 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> we've booked the computer room, you don't have internet

How practical is this?

1. Is your institution able to provide this support?

2. Do you believe you are able to supervise the room well enough that students will be caught if they cheat? (Eg, bring a phone and look up answers.)

rtpg 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

2 is “fine”, or that’s just the status quo. The friction from copying over stuff from a tiny phone screen discretely is the cost to cheat as well

I don’t know about 1s practicality. In my schooling it would always be doable but I have the impression US schools are a different scale

cholmdomsky 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Jfc, this is a solved problem at the community college near me. All of the computers in the testing room are thin clients that effectively remote into a vm, and you get checked with a metal detector before going into the room with the computers.

If you can escape the vm on the fly and manage to use an llm to cheat, you deserve that A.

hansvm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> have to manually run the code in your head

If you're doing a good job, you have to do that anyway, or at least have enough of a spidey sense for broken code to know when to investigate and add an extra test case.

Something like 30% of the time at $WORK, interviewers report the candidate as having solved the problem when a closer inspection reveals UB, memory corruption, and other bullshit. The test cases pass, and I think that's part of the problem. You can't tune out and avoid deeply understanding the submission.

mbreese an hour ago | parent [-]

> If you're doing a good job

I think the problem is that the grader has to run your code in their head. That's a whole different problem.

dizhn an hour ago | parent [-]

I would imagine every professor (or assistant) who graded any programming exam I wrote was doing just that and further expect them to let some things slide as long as the general direction was correct.

seanxx 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

walrus01 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm quite a bit older than you, old enough that I remember learning to touch type in elementary school on Apple IIe and IIgs desktop computers. It's not reasonable these days to expect people to hand write a 4, 6, 8 page length essay on paper and pen with a finite time limit in a classroom. Being able to edit and revise things in a word processor type interface is an essential part of writing an academic paper.

Additionally expecting whoever is reading the paper to comprehend everyone's (likely very sloppy, in this era) handwriting is an exercise in frustration for the person who would be evaluating the papers.

Not that tests/exams can't be given on paper, ever (multiple choice still works), but for something where people are expected to provide multiple pages of coherently written essay output, I would struggle to do it by hand. And I'm old enough that we did do a lot purely on paper when I was in school.

jemmyw 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

From what I recall, doing handwritten CS exams in 2004, you aren't writing long essays. Long form was the course work. The exam was short form answers and it did not stress my writing hand. The one with most writing was the natural language exam (an extinct subject I should think) and I felt more time worry over having to flip back and forth between pages to cross reference than time spent writing.

throwaway152321 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I would struggle to do it by hand.

If you did it before then, barring physical limitations which have occurred since then, you would struggle for a short while and then you would be fine. I also did coursework purely on paper, got out of practice, and then once my kids were in school got back into the habit of handwriting. I can even write cursive again. Cursive makes it much easier on the hand and wrist. There's a reason it was invented. :)

mbreese an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> barring physical limitations

I think you're missing the point. This is a physical limitation. People don't write as much as they used to. I used to be able to write for hours, taking notes, writing papers, etc... Now, I try to take notes during a meeting and my hand cramps. And as a bonus, my handwriting never was great, but now it's illegible for me.

Yes, we all "could" re-learn this skill, but how many people will? If you asked me to type a paper on a locked-down computer, I could easily. If you asked me to write a 2000 word paper by hand in an hour, I doubt it would happen.

If we expect students to take in-person tests on paper, then you should also do the rest of the classwork on paper. I am completely in the camp that we learn more when we write something. The physical act is part of the learning process. But you can't expect students to write an in-depth exam without having the practice of doing it often.

kevin_thibedeau 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Cursive makes it much easier on the hand and wrist.

For righties.

throwaway152321 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm left handed. It's still easier than print for me.

LoganDark 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have never been able to handwrite well and my family suspects I have dysgraphia. I can write, but slowly and unreadably. But I can type over 160 wpm. Typing for me is strictly superior, probably by an order of magnitude.

__d 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My child's high school is doing the same thing: all exams are now handwritten on paper in a supervised room. Phones and smartwatches are always banned during the school day, but laptops are banned during exams. This is standard at state-funded high schools in Australia.

There will likely be a period where those who went through high school with computers struggle with hand writing stuff, but the next generation will have done it all their lives.

Aeolun an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Or we can just require school to actually, you know, teach people how to write?

ant6n 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m 40 and forcing students to do handwritten essays during tests has always been stupid. Typing is much faster, why bottleneck ideas by forcing handwriting?

ThrowawayR2 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A lecture hall full of click-click-click isn't going to be conducive to concentrating on a test.

rsanek 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you can't concentrate while people are working on computers near you, I don't think you'll do well in any workplace that is based around knowledge work.

anigbrowl 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This is why I prefer working alone at night and am massively more productive. In any case, what's being tested in an exam setting is one's understanding of the course material, not whether they are a good fit for your idea of a normal workplace.

kalium-xyz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I had tons of exams like that. Its not an issue as the computers simply do not have loud mechanical keyboards connected

yulker 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

because writing speed isn't the bottleneck for what is being tested

aetch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because students aren’t AI and aren’t measured by tokens/s

dzink 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fill the room with typewriters.

walrus01 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Typewriters are an expensive and niche item these days, due to no longer being manufactured, and the good ones being collected by weird nerds. Sort of like buying a 40-year-old vinyl turntable that is in good and usable condition.

dzink 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If I build you a custom device that receives questions from a central computer and lets the user plug in whatever keyboard they want via bluetooth or usb to only type and answer the questions (ability to edit the text and submit when ready). The central computer can receive all the questions submitted to any of these devices connected to it via wifi or cloud. How much would pay per device? Would you pay for a subscription?

walrus01 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think this can already be implemented through a fairly mundane thin client approach, such as Dell/Wyse type thin clients, citrix stuff, or an ordinary x86-64 desktop PC setup with an absolute barebones OS that connects a graphical desktop session to something centralized over a LAN.

dzink 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Or you can do a much cheaper tiny esp32 typewriter with a basic display and a usb for a keyboard. But who wants cheap for education.

fn-mote an hour ago | parent [-]

Frankly, the problem is finding someone with the knowledge to administer it.

Initial cost is almost certainly not a factor; the components could be so old as to be free.

kalium-xyz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You cant type fast on them either

robocat 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

You mean on mechanical typewriters? It would be hard to learn to press keys slowly and avoid rollover unless using single finger typing: key travel was a long way on old typewriters.

forgetfreeman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm 50. Optimizing testing for speed is goofy. The point of the exercise is to demonstrate the student's understanding of the material, not their WPM.

tengwar2 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm 60+. I'd be more concerned about the student's physical ability to write for several hours continuously. Writer's cramp used to be a problem, and that was when we were used to hand-writing everything. Legibility is also a consideration: I have to hand-write a lot(keyboards would not be socially acceptable for some of my work), and even with decades of practice and a hand that I designed for legibility, sometimes I have difficulty reading my own writing.

forgetfreeman 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I have absolutely no concern over a 20 yr old's ability to weather the rigors of manipulating a 7 gram pencil. It's not like we're talking about getting them to spend a week on a roofing crew or swap their gaming mouse for a set of post hole diggers here. If someone needs an accommodation then that should absolutely be made available.

hansvm 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm all for handwritten tests, but it's more complicated than that. If you're actually writing for 2hr+ and haven't studied appropriate technique or bought some sort of crutch like a pencil holder then the repetitive motion will absolutely cause cramps for a fraction of the class regardless of being 20ish and healthy, and they might not find that out until they're forced to write for 2hr. The muscles manipulating a pencil (with poor technique) are much smaller than those manipulating a post hole digger, so that comparison isn't fair.

aetch 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What are you even talking about? It’s normal for young students to be using a pencil to write for multiple hours in a day in school.

dminik 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You should definitely take speed into consideration. If your're writing an essay, being able to type it out and still have both the opportunity and time to edit it is great. If you're writing it on paper, you likely have neither. What comes to you first is what's submitted.

anigbrowl 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

When I was in grade school the common practice was to use the back page of the exam booklet to do a quick outline (assuming there was no other scrap paper available) and just cross it out when you were done with it. Being able to organize your thoughts and maintain a clear direction in writing 500-1000 words seems like an important thing to test for.

doodlesdev 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And that's exactly the point! By making sure the student can't edit the entire text once its written, you force him to think about the essay's structure and force him to plan much more before writing :)

fn-mote 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, but you know that professionals edit, right? It improves the quality of the product.

derektank 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If the goal is to assess the ability of the student to produce a professional product, then why prevent them from using AI in the first place? The vast majority of professionals have access to AI nowadays?

Most curricula should probably feature both forms of assessment, demonstrating your knowledge of the basics in a closed book assessment and your ability to produce high quality final products using all resources available to you in take home assignments.

imron 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you’re suggesting that the test favors those capable of arranging their thoughts and words before putting pen to paper then.... I’m not sure there’s a problem

forgetfreeman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And yet strangely this hasn't proved a major impediment to the species at any point in the last ~5000 years...

xp84 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure but given any length of time, which does tend to be finitely allocated for a test (if for no other reason than the prof or proctor does have other places to be eventually), having to hand write is slower and harder to revise, which means it's harder to get that full, understanding-demonstrating essay, done and polished.

dwattttt 6 hours ago | parent [-]

If your test is bottlenecked on the speed it takes to write it, you're testing writing skills.

I also challenge that "hand writing is harder to revise"; again, why is the speed it takes to write it at all relevant?

xp84 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> challenge "hand writing is harder to revise"

What? Suppose you want to fix the opening of your essay. Best case it's pencil and you can erase some, but worst case you have a longer sentence you want to put in there so you can't do it without scribbling all over and making a mess of the page. Word processors let you edit. How is this controversial?

> why is the speed it takes to write it at all relevant?

Okay, so from first principles:

1. Time is finite, we will all perish

2. Unless you are doing open book, needs to be supervised (proctored / or prof/TA is there)

3. That person is paid for a shift

4. That shift must end

5. Therefore, anything that enables people to write faster is good for the students, who can get more paper written, or the paper better revised, during the finite time available for writing.

1123581321 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s fine to erase or use scratch paper on an essay test.

You don’t write the test to fill the 60 minute slot. You time it so students are able to finish early if they’re really good. Slow ones need the whole time but can still do well if they understand the material being tested.

squibonpig 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't generally get why tests are designed to rush a student. Is speed a proxy for understanding?

kalenx 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, to some extent, yes. Of course the literal number of works you can write per minute is not, but:

- someone with a good understanding will often come to a concise, clear answer while someone struggling will produce a convoluted paragraph.

- the way to get to the result will vary depending on your understanding (e.g., are you blindly applying some method or understanding what's going on). For instance, "hey, this is a vector field, I don't need to evaluate this complex integral, I just need to compute the difference between the start and endpoint of the curve!". Both answers will be correct, but one denotes a much better actual understanding (and will take way less time).

1123581321 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I meant to say they usually aren’t a rush for non-ace students, just a full hour. You have to work diligently, though. Competitive tests excepted, obviously.

sethammons 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Speed is part of fluency. Fluency and understanding feel related

dwattttt 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> 5. Therefore, anything that enables people to write faster is good for the students, who can get more paper written, or the paper better revised, during the finite time available for writing.

I think you're missing some logic in there somewhere. If a student fills in as many pages as they can, each with the number 1 written on it as large as possible, was this a good conclusion? The quantity of writing is not a good metric.

EDIT: to give a closer to reality example, an essay that's 4 times longer than a competing essay does not make it better.

freehorse 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Re "hand writing is harder to revise", I never had an issue with erasing words or parts of the text and using asterisks, end footnotes, the margins and whatever free space available (with arrows or not) to do revisions in written exams. Nobody complained and afaik it was fairly standard to do where I studied, as long as your exam itself was actually legible. Granted, I refer to math-related exams not essays on literature or philosophy where form may have mattered more. On the other hand, I cannot imagine writing any math during an exam on a computer.

__d 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I would often do a bullet point summary/outline of my answer on the paper. That would have arrows and insertions and crossed-out stuff everywhere -- it was usually a mess.

But then I'd use that to write the actual text answer, and consequently, it was mostly clean. I'd still have to cross stuff out or add a phrase between the lines every so often, but once the basic structure was done, that was mostly unnecessary.

And if I was ever pressed for time, I'd usually get part marks for the outline anyway. Depending on the subject, I'd sometimes race through the questions doing just the outlines, and then come back to write the full text as a complete second pass.

To be fair, this wasn't creative writing. I think it'd be harder when the expression is the content.

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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