| ▲ | userbinator 7 hours ago |
| take-home, closed-book type What an oxymoron. I agree with the others here that AI isn't the problem. |
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| ▲ | lokar 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| My favorite exams (as a ugrad for classics, and in grad school to advance to candidacy in CS) were in person, hand written, open book. We had lots of time, and a fair idea of the range of questions. It rewards actuality mastering the material vs memorizing it. For the CS exam some people brought more books than they could physically carry, I don’t think it helped them much. |
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| ▲ | BeetleB 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've had such exams. It was the honor system. The idea is that a typical exam is too short to evaluate the student's knowledge and a belief that fast students shouldn't have an advantage. |
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| ▲ | ninalanyon 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How long is too short? Each exam in my BSc Applied Physics final (1977, Exeter Uni.) was three hours and we had similar exams in each of the preceding years to weed out those who weren't keeping up. I'm pretty sure that having more time would not have helped the weaker students get through the Quantum Mechanics exam. In addition I had to defend the report (120 pages of typescript and charts) of my final year project to my supervisor and another senior academic. And it was clear that they had actually read it. All those exams were open note; anything in your own hand or a copy of a lecture handout was permitted. Again the weaker students would not have been helped by more time because they hadn't understood that you have to have enough familiarity with your notes to be able find the right information. Some brought in 50 litre rucksacks stuffed with ring binders and the noise of them furiously leafing through was enough for the invigilators to warn them to make less noise or risk being ejected. In Norway it is typical that an exam of similar standard allows five hours. | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 3 hours for us as well. When you start doing graduate level work, a problem could easily last over an hour. And many people will have false starts before they figure it out. It's not a problem with homework assignments as they have multiple days to finish. So the professor has to decide between poor data with high variance, or good data with lower variance. > I'm pretty sure that having more time would not have helped the weaker students get through the Quantum Mechanics exam. Funny you mention that. When I did my (undergrad) QM II exam, I likely got the highest score, and I'm sure my score was below 40%. There just wasn't enough time. | |
| ▲ | epihelix 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I sat one exam at uni (in person, invigilated) for History and Philosophy of Science, which had no time-limit. You could take as long as you needed, whether that was one hour, five hours or all day. Pretty much everyone still took three hours. But you felt so much calmer, knowing you weren't racing against the clock. | |
| ▲ | what 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | All of my exams were three hours as well. I don’t think there’s a single instance where more time would have helped me. If I didn’t immediately know the answer to a question, I’d just move on, then revisit. When you don’t know the material/answer, more time won’t help. But you do have to know how to take a test and manage your time. |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I really don't see how it would cost too much to pay TAs some more proctor hours. | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | A lot of challenging problems are not solved in one go. You work on it, don't get too far, and then you get more ideas later at night while cooking dinner. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure people cheated even in my day. But this is the spirit - they're trying to give problems as challenging as they would for homework - and a lot of those classes have very challenging homework problems. |
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| ▲ | raverbashing 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's a way. But if your professor is confident AI won't help you too much then it's a very hard test | |
| ▲ | llbbdd 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Fast students are smarter. Why avoid grading on that? EDIT: Rate limited so: "smarter" here means how well the student will perform in a career in their chosen field. Fast + accurate is the ideal. | | |
| ▲ | eredengrin 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Fast students are smarter. Assuming this is true (others have already addressed a few of the many reasons it might not be), wouldn't that imply that practically all existing tests are already flawed? If you want to grade on time, every exam should be graded with a formula taking both the time and the correctness into account. A binary "fast enough" vs "not fast enough" is about as useful as a pass/fail class grade. The exams that felt like the fairest reflections of my own knowledge were proctored in-person, closed book, and time unlimited. Of course, being time unlimited works better for quantitative/engineering exams. I haven't put much thought into more qualitative/liberal arts type exams. | | |
| ▲ | handoflixue 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | In my experience, it was common to test speed - my favorite was solving 100 arithmetic problems in, I think it was 3 minutes? Perhaps shorter. The point was that it was basically impossible to solve them all, so it evaluated both your speed and your self-assessment: if you move too quickly, you'll make errors. If you spend too much time second-guessing yourself, you won't get enough problems finished. It always struck me as an ingenious way to get a feel for a new group of students, since it's quick to administer and equally quick to grade, while revealing quite a lot of information. Certainly we hold speed to some regard, since a lot of academic accommodations involve granting extra time. If we aren't testing on speed, then surely we should give that to anyone that asks? |
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| ▲ | BeetleB 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Fast students are smarter. Dubious assertion. > "smarter" here means how well the student will perform in a career in their chosen field. Fast + accurate is the ideal. Still dubious. Also, I don't know where you work, but in most of my jobs, career growth is not limited by speed with which you do the work. It's one factor among, say, 10. Most of the people who got ahead were not the fastest. They're not trying to gauge who is the fastest. Or even the smartest. Just those who have the skills. In the real world, you'll rarely (as in, never) have to solve those same problems with the same speed you will in the exam. In a lot (all?) of the jobs I worked, taking a day to solve a Medium level Leetcode problem was quite OK. | |
| ▲ | mlloyd 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are they? Or do they just have superior recall? Or maybe lack test-taking anxiety? Or write or type quicker or...? Lots of reasons a slow student can be just as smart or smarter than a fast one. | | |
| ▲ | llbbdd 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those are all proxies for "is smarter". They have better memories, perform better under pressure, etc. Universities are meant to prepare students for the real world where these things matter. |
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| ▲ | bzbz 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Define “smarter” —- already a vague and overloaded term. And then consider whether the point of the class is to test smarts, or something else. I’d expect that’s not the intent of most undergraduate degrees. | | |
| ▲ | redwall_hp 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Arguably someone who is faster is more likely to just be recalling memorized things faster, while someone who's slower may have a deeper understanding but needs time to actually think it through. Memorization is already hacking the rules of the game that's supposed to be gauging understanding. An ideal test is resistant to rote memorization as well as outright cheating. |
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| ▲ | davesque 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Care to explain? | | |
| ▲ | llbbdd 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | See my other comment. I want my doctor/plumber/etc to be able to recall faster, type faster, work better under pressure. If you're better at those things you should get better grades and be paid more. | | |
| ▲ | davesque 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | What if taking longer leads to a better result? Doesn't faster imply less thought? | | |
| ▲ | handoflixue 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | People can have multiple values. Tradeoffs exist. Are faster ambulances worse for you? | | |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The final exam was not take-home, which is where the massive discrepancy showed up. I do agree that the idea of giving take-home exams and expecting students not to cheat has long since passed its prime. There may have been a time when it was reasonable to expect most students to behave honestly, but that does not hold at all in today’s climate. Especially post-COVID, for whatever combination of reasons, students just don’t seem to care at all about anything other than min-maxing their effort to grade ratio. Which leads to a lot of outcomes like this one where students start using ChatGPT early, think it will continue forever, and then get completely crushed when they encounter the first assignment where they can’t cheat. |
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| ▲ | levocardia 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The craziest part is that a game theory expert can't see the problem here! |
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| ▲ | Steuard 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I can't say what the reality looks like today, but when I was in college 25 years ago (Harvey Mudd), closed-book take-home exams were pretty common (often with a specific time limit: maybe 3/5/8 hours), and I would have been shocked and aghast at the thought of anyone cheating. We took our Honor Code deeply seriously. (I've given my own students take-home open-book exams with "no outside resources" rules regularly in the past, but I've pretty much concluded that isn't viable anymore. But then, we don't have a formal Honor Code here.) One particularly striking example was a timed, closed-book math exam where the exam paper just listed four problem numbers from the book. We were expected to open the book, copy down those problems without looking at anything else, and then put the book away. Honestly, that one felt like just asking for trouble and now that I'm a professor myself I think that the prof was unreasonably lazy, but it certainly captured the spirit of the thing. (Technically, that wasn't a Harvey Mudd professor but rather a professor at the adjacent graduate university. Maybe that had something to do with it.) |
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| ▲ | vatsachak 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The other day some sucker told me, "don't throw that trash over there it's littering" and I told that sucker "there's no way anyone could enforce it" lol. Some people get up in their jimmies about this but if they don't want me doing something they should make it impossible to do it </bait> |