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jonplackett 9 hours ago

Wouldn’t that just help the American labs anyway though? Or do they assume they’ve actually already figured this stuff out and kept it secret?

vintermann 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It used to be the case that NSA hired the majority of all math graduates in the US, and were assumed to be years ahead in cryptography. Yet in the 90s, it became clear that they no longer were that - among other things, the cipher of the notorious Clipper chip was broken, and we can rule out that it was made weak on purpose because the whole point of Clipper was that they had a backdoor.

So, despite hiring the cream of the crop of math graduates, who could read the papers of free academia, but whose own result the free world could not access - they fell behind.

I have a theory explaining why. I think it's because science is an interactive process. NSA cryptographers could read papers, but they couldn't talk openly with the authors of those papers, because of secrecy demands - even asking question might indicate what they were working on. You can easily imagine them spending months on something they could have avoided by going to the original authors and getting told "Oh, we tried that for a long time, it doesn't work".

Whether that theory is right or not, cryptography is a concrete example of a domain where public research with fewer resources beat private research with a lot more resources.

idiotsecant 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Everyone in this thread is getting distracted by nationalism, but you hit the nail on the head. In this case for whatever reason the Chinese AI industry is collaborative and the American AI industry is not. This will result in the Chinese companies making progress faster. Full stop. This isn't a judgement on the merits of either system, only an observation of likely results.

tiahura 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Hasn't that been the mantra of open source for 40 years. Armies of companies, trillions of valuation, or even just Wayland, suggest that isn't always the case.

eikenberry 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

So free software can only be considered a successful strategy if every single project succeeds?

NamlchakKhandro 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Reminds me of Dot Net in the early 2000-2012... No one collaborated

7speter 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

From what I gather, the Chinese are behind, but a lot of their research amounts to scrappy, clever discoveries in how to use more novel technologies (for Qwen and Deepseek, its mixture of expert models, that can do inference using a portion of the model at a time). The chinese also distill information from American models, so there’s that.

The American companies, from my impression don’t involve themselves with such lowly “hacks” because they have so much money to just push forward with doing everything on big heavy models that run on the most cutting edge nvidia chips that they can, the moment, kinda sorta get on demand (I say that in some degree of jest).

idiotsecant 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The American companies would love to develop these 'hacks' because it would make them more money, something they are in existential need of right now.

They don't develop them because they don't collaborate publicly anymore.

Where would the whole industry be if Google never allowed publishing the transformers paper?

It's not a coincidence that the American AI industry grew fastest in capability when it was the most open.

7speter 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just a crazy catch 22, it seems

tiahura 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would they collaborate? Why not defect and just keep theirs private and implement the open ones?