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Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago

Don't glorify Rome too much. It was a slavery based society that progressed sciences, technology and civilization little from what they inherited from the Mesopotamian's/Greeks. Heck written Latin didn't even have punctuation marks, not even spaces. That's because it was only used by slave scribes. The nobility that could write, did so in Greek.

beloch 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

- Go stand in the Hagia Sophia and tell me the Romans did little to improve architecture and engineering.

- I won't defend the Roman record on slavery, but I will point out that the Greeks (particularly the Spartans) were slave societies too.

- The Greeks were significantly more xenophobic and sexist than the Romans. If you washed up on the shores of ancient Greece, you could never have become a citizen. The Romans were far more tolerant and inclusive.

- Putting spaces between words was a medieval innovation. The Greeks wrote in much the same way as the Romans, and that was thanks to the Phoenicians!

- Romans revered Greek culture because their city started in a period when Greek colonies were spreading Greek influence throughout the Mediterranean and, specifically, in Italy itself. Greece was to Rome as Rome was to medieval Europeans: A colonizer.

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No ancient society smells of roses if you look close enough. However, it's also rare to find ancient societies that expanded and persisted for centuries without being innovative and progressive. The Romans were both awful and great, much like the Greeks, Akkadians, Babylonians, Sumerians, etc. before them.

bigstrat2003 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Also, our own society right now will be someday considered barbaric by our descendants. I don't know what for, but you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen. We should show the people of the past some grace, the same way we might hope the people of the future will show us some grace.

rayiner 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

Eating meat. Changes in moral perception generally are downstream of changes in technology. E.g. the modern conception of women being equal participants in the economy arose alongside the growth of the knowledge economy, where your average worker was sit in front of a computer instead of bolting doors to a car frame on an assembly line. I strongly suspect that once lab grown meat becomes ubiquitous, our killing and eating animals will come to become regarded as barbaric.

Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sparta is not exactly known as the pinnacle of civilization. As for the rest of your comment, you make some good points.

TheCoelacanth 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sparta is quite possibly the pinnacle of horribleness for civilization, which is why I think they emphasized that it particularly was a slave society (80%+ slaves and a majority of the remainder were non-citizens).

quibono 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> a slavery based society

As opposed to the Greeks, Parthians, Ptolemaic Egypt and Judea? Unless you mean "fully dependent on slave labour" - then I guess we can mention Sparta and Athens.

> that progressed sciences, technology and civilization little from what they inherited from the Mesopotamian's/Greeks

What does "little" mean in this context? This is a very fuzzy concept but this doesn't sound right.

Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sparta is known for little other than their military prowess, which was a necessity for managing their much larger slave population.

Athens had a rather strange system of slavery. The majority of slaves, owned by State, earned wages and worked and lived unattended. It was much more similar to indentured-servitude.

quibono 2 hours ago | parent [-]

My point was that Sparta was far more dependent on slave labour for its existence than either Rome or Athens.

simonebrunozzi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was one of the most influential civilization in all of recorded history. It's not about glorifying it, or justifying it. I think that a lot of people see it much more "civilized" than many others, before and during it. And perhaps after it too.

coldtea 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Don't glorify Rome too much. It was a slavery based society that progressed sciences, technology and civilization little from what they inherited from the Mesopotamian's/Greeks.

It progressed civic life, institutions, law, infrastructure, and other things, a lot. Modern law is a heavy percentage ancient roman law in basis.

Slavery-based society doesn't say much for 2 millenia ago. Most where. The US had slavery until less than 2 centuries, and Jim Crow and other such things until less than a century. And still has things like forced prison labor, so let's cut the Romans some fucking slack.

Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Slavery was legal in most society's 2 millennia ago but most society's were not built to be depended on slavery the way it was in Sparta, Rome and the American South.

coldtea 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They swept it under the carpet, keeping the benefits, but keeping it a side part of their economy. Kind of like a modern country depending on unprotected labor and even child labor in the third world for its minerals or even for its Nikes.

And a lot the later 19th-20th century "englightened" countries that didn't have explicit slavery in their midst, have enslaved and exploited whole countries as colonies.

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> forced prison labor

I'd rather work than be in a cell.

oersted 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If it is forced it is not what you would rather do.

coldtea an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd rather have a civilized prison system with human conditions, instead of an medieval revenge, profiteering, racism and exclusion, a prison-labor complex, and the death penalty - all created, ran, and cheered by bigoted Old Testament-types of human scum.

Especially if I get far far worse crime outcomes than countries with much healthier prison systems.

But, hey, that's just me.

WalterBright an hour ago | parent [-]

I'd be content with a prison system that keeps the criminals away from victimizing more people.

paulryanrogers 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

Humane prisons aren't incompatible with public safety from violent offenders.

FergusArgyll 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You should read a day in the life of ivan denisovich. In my understanding, the whole book is making your point

oersted 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you not entertained?

rayiner 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s ironic that the civilizations that directly contributed to us sitting here believing in egalitarian democracy, get far more hate for it than the ones that never evolved into egalitarian democracy at all. We are standing on the shoulders of giants and some people can’t see it.

Shitty-kitty 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I was talking about its economic system, not politics.

BigTTYGothGF 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> progressed sciences, technology and civilization little

Roman engineering was pretty darn solid.

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What civilization would you glorify?

jazz9k 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yawn. More rewriting of history to try to remove successful cultures.